Sound Practices Mailing List Files - Volume 1
=========================================================================
From: "Ken Dangerfield" <bpyakd@mail.island.net>
Subject: I2S digital interface
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:28:05 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n169
On their website, Sonic Frontiers is touting UltraAnalog's I2S
"enhanced" digital interface, saying:
"Utilizing the mil-spec 13W3 "D-sub" miniature connector system,
separate dedicated clock, audio data and control signals are conveyed
from the digital source...to the digital processor via discrete
wideband low VSWR multiple coaxial and balanced interconnections."
They claim this eliminates the necessity of jitter inducing clock
encode and recovery circuitry, which "...can result in jitter levels
below the measurement resolution of commercial test
instrumentation" thereby reducing noise and distortion.
What do we think of all this?? If I2s is a superior interface, is
it possible/practical to convert existing CD transports and DACs to
use it??
TIA for comments and information.
Regards,
Ken Dangerfield
=========================================================================
From: Kalman Rubinson <rubinsnk@is2.nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: I2S digital interface
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:20:59 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n169
On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, Ken Dangerfield wrote:
> On their website, Sonic Frontiers is touting UltraAnalog's I2S
> "enhanced" digital interface, saying:
> What do we think of all this?? If I2s is a superior interface, is
> it possible/practical to convert existing CD transports and DACs to
> use it??
See my TAA articles on how to do this. To utilise the SF I2Se interface,
you will have to handle the i/o hardware yourself though.
Kal
=========================================================================
From: Torsten.Loesch@FinanceManager.Finance.FinanceAndInformation.enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk
Subject: Re: I2S digital interface
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 18:03:48 +0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n169
Hi all,
> "Utilizing the mil-spec 13W3 "D-sub" miniature connector system,
> separate dedicated clock, audio data and control signals are conveyed
> from the digital source...to the digital processor via discrete
> wideband low VSWR multiple coaxial and balanced interconnections."
Very nice connector and Cable. Notably better then the S-VHS Leads
Audio Alchemy used for their I2S Implementation.
> They claim this eliminates the necessity of jitter inducing clock
> encode and recovery circuitry, which "...can result in jitter levels
> below the measurement resolution of commercial test
> instrumentation" thereby reducing noise and distortion.
Correct implementation assumed yes. The best thing is that I2Se
allows the DAC to be the "Master" clocking the Transport with a
fixed and interoperable protocol.
> What do we think of all this?? If I2s is a superior interface, is
> it possible/practical to convert existing CD transports and DACs to
> use it??
Yes on both. I find that a propperly sorted (read de-jittered) Cd-
Player which internaly uses I2S and has the Clock direct on the DAC
outperforms all but the super-expensive X-Port/DAC Combo's.
So if the actual split into I2S exists in your player (a number of
Bottom-line Philips based Units will not have that), running these
out will be no big problem. Have fun with all these MECL SMD Devices
I2Se prescribes though. Try UA for more detailed Circuit information.
Later Thorsten
Later Thorsten
=========================================================================
From: Kalman Rubinson <rubinsnk@is2.nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: I2S digital interface
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 18:20:59 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n169
On Sat, 24 Jan 1998 Torsten.Loesch@FinanceManager.Finance.FinanceAndInformation.enhar-ha.nthames.nhs
.uk wrote:
> > "Utilizing the mil-spec 13W3 "D-sub" miniature connector system,
> > separate dedicated clock, audio data and control signals are conveyed
> > from the digital source...to the digital processor via discrete
> > wideband low VSWR multiple coaxial and balanced interconnections."
>
> Very nice connector and Cable. Notably better then the S-VHS Leads
> Audio Alchemy used for their I2S Implementation.
This is an elaboration of the proposed standard developed by Kevin
Halverson of Muse. The I2Se goes beyond (away from) that standard by
using ECL devices and, thus, is incompatible with the Muse, Ayre and
Resolution Audio transports and DACs which stick with it.
> Correct implementation assumed yes. The best thing is that I2Se
> allows the DAC to be the "Master" clocking the Transport with a
> fixed and interoperable protocol.
Built into the original standard. See my TAA articles for the details.
> > What do we think of all this?? If I2s is a superior interface, is
> > it possible/practical to convert existing CD transports and DACs to
> > use it??
Described DIY in the TAA articles.
> So if the actual split into I2S exists in your player (a number of
> Bottom-line Philips based Units will not have that), running these
> out will be no big problem. Have fun with all these MECL SMD Devices
> I2Se prescribes though. Try UA for more detailed Circuit information.
The alternative EIA (Sony/BB) signals are amenable to the 3wire interface
and are equally jitter resistant.
Kal
=========================================================================
From: KevinC927 <KevinC927@aol.com>
Subject: Re: I2S digital interface
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 18:44:16 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n169
In a message dated 98-01-24 14:29:16 EST, you write:
<< Try UA for more detailed Circuit information. >>
What is UA?
=========================================================================
From: Kalman Rubinson <rubinsnk@is2.nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: I2S digital interface
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 20:29:02 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n169
On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, KevinC927 wrote:
> In a message dated 98-01-24 14:29:16 EST, you write:
>
> << Try UA for more detailed Circuit information. >>
>
>
> What is UA?
UltraAnalog. Richard Powers of UA was instrumental in developing the
I2Se spec.
Kal
>
=========================================================================
From: Torsten.Loesch@FinanceManager.Finance.FinanceAndInformation.enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk
Subject: Re(2): I2S digital interface
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 11:54:29 +0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n169
Hi again,
> This is an elaboration of the proposed standard developed by Kevin
> Halverson of Muse. The I2Se goes beyond (away from) that standard by
> using ECL devices and, thus, is incompatible with the Muse, Ayre and
> Resolution Audio transports and DACs which stick with it.
Interesting. I never heard of the Muse Iniative here in the UK. Seems
they did not publicise it very widly.......
> > So if the actual split into I2S exists in your player (a number of
> > Bottom-line Philips based Units will not have that), running these
> > out will be no big problem. Have fun with all these MECL SMD Devices
> > I2Se prescribes though. Try UA for more detailed Circuit information.
>
> The alternative EIA (Sony/BB) signals are amenable to the 3wire interface
> and are equally jitter resistant.
Kal, there is a problem with those Players that use the SAA7220 or SAA7345
Decoder/Digital Filter (and likely the new device too). If the internal
4-Times Oversampling Filter is used, the Data and Clock lines that would
be carrying I2S at 1-Fs actually carry I2S at 4-Fs. As the chips (the 7345
at least) are software configured from the uP this next to impossible to
over-ride to get 1-Fs I2S.
As example, the whole current lower Range of Philips/Magnavox Players uses
this scheme as does 9to my knowledge) the Marantz CD-46/48. The Marantz
CD-57/67 and similar machines use I2S at 1-Fs however, so could be converted.
Later Thorsten
=========================================================================
From: Torsten.Loesch@FinanceManager.Finance.FinanceAndInformation.enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk
Subject: Re(2): I2S digital interface
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 12:44:44 +0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n169
Hi all,
> << Try UA for more detailed Circuit information. >>
>
> What is UA?
Sorry, but the question is who is UA - Ultra Analog -
the companie proposing the I2Se Standard.
Later Thorsten
=========================================================================
From: Kalman Rubinson <rubinsnk@is2.nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: Re(2): I2S digital interface
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 13:47:16 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n170
On Sun, 25 Jan 1998 Torsten.Loesch@FinanceManager.Finance.FinanceAndInformation.enhar-ha.nthames.nhs
.uk wrote:
> Hi again,
>
> > This is an elaboration of the proposed standard developed by Kevin
> > Halverson of Muse. The I2Se goes beyond (away from) that standard by
> > using ECL devices and, thus, is incompatible with the Muse, Ayre and
> > Resolution Audio transports and DACs which stick with it.
>
> Interesting. I never heard of the Muse Iniative here in the UK. Seems
> they did not publicise it very widly.......
Proposed at AES last year. UA and SF chose to strike out on their own.
> Kal, there is a problem with those Players that use the SAA7220 or SAA7345
> Decoder/Digital Filter (and likely the new device too). If the internal
> 4-Times Oversampling Filter is used, the Data and Clock lines that would
> be carrying I2S at 1-Fs actually carry I2S at 4-Fs. As the chips (the 7345
> at least) are software configured from the uP this next to impossible to
> over-ride to get 1-Fs I2S.
Yup. OTOH, the 7220 programming can be overridden with intervention at
the pins.
Kal
=========================================================================
From: Kalman Rubinson <rubinsnk@is2.nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: Re(2): I2S digital interface
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 13:50:50 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n170
On Sun, 25 Jan 1998 Torsten.Loesch@FinanceManager.Finance.FinanceAndInformation.enhar-ha.nthames.nhs
.uk wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> > << Try UA for more detailed Circuit information. >>
> >
> > What is UA?
>
> Sorry, but the question is who is UA - Ultra Analog -
> the companie proposing the I2Se Standard.
1. UltraAnalog is a California company that makes some really high
quality DAC and digital receivers used in many high end components. They
also make ADCs and other digital devices. Good stuff.
2. The I2Se is less a standard than a proprietary design. To my
knowledge, no one else uses it.
Kal
=========================================================================
From: Kalman Rubinson <rubinsnk@is2.nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: I2S digital interface
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 16:38:13 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n170
On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, evaguido wrote:
> So more induced jitter due to extra hardware
Actually, the UA/SF I2Se requires additional hardware over the other
I2S route but either involves substantially LESS than any form of S/PDIF.
Kal
=========================================================================
From: Kalman Rubinson <rubinsnk@is2.nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: I2S digital interface
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 17:11:28 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n170
On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, evaguido wrote:
> Most jitter is not due to SPDIF, but to bad drives (EMC, oscillators)
Most? Evidence?
> Once that jittering SPDIF appears at your DAC, all the silicon there messes
> it up again
As opposed to vacuum tube? ;-)
> No interface helps
True. No interface = no signal = no jitter.
> Solve the problem somewere else
Nah. Solve the problems everywhere.
Kal
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: I2S digital interface
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 22:34:53 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n170
Hi all,
Most jitter is not due to SPDIF, but to bad drives (EMC, oscillators)
Once that jittering SPDIF appears at your DAC, all the silicon there messes
it up again
No interface helps
Solve the problem somewere else
have fun
Guido
At 15:28 23-1-98 -0800, you wrote:
>On their website, Sonic Frontiers is touting UltraAnalog's I2S
>"enhanced" digital interface, saying:
>
>"Utilizing the mil-spec 13W3 "D-sub" miniature connector system,
>separate dedicated clock, audio data and control signals are conveyed
>from the digital source...to the digital processor via discrete
>wideband low VSWR multiple coaxial and balanced interconnections."
>
>They claim this eliminates the necessity of jitter inducing clock
>encode and recovery circuitry, which "...can result in jitter levels
>below the measurement resolution of commercial test
>instrumentation" thereby reducing noise and distortion.
>
>What do we think of all this?? If I2s is a superior interface, is
>it possible/practical to convert existing CD transports and DACs to
>use it??
>
>TIA for comments and information.
>
>Regards,
>Ken Dangerfield
>
>
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: I2S digital interface
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 22:34:58 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n170
At 18:20 23-1-98 -0500, Kalman Rubinson wrote:
>On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, Ken Dangerfield wrote:
>
>> On their website, Sonic Frontiers is touting UltraAnalog's I2S
>> "enhanced" digital interface, saying:
>
>> What do we think of all this?? If I2s is a superior interface, is
>> it possible/practical to convert existing CD transports and DACs to
>> use it??
>
>See my TAA articles on how to do this. To utilise the SF I2Se interface,
>you will have to handle the i/o hardware yourself though.
So more induced jitter due to extra hardware
Bye,
Guido :-)
>Kal
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Kalman Rubinson <rubinsnk@is2.nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: Re(2): I2S digital interface
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:38:37 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n171
On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 Torsten.Loesch@FinanceManager.Finance.FinanceAndInformation.enhar-ha.nthames.nhs
.uk wrote:
> > No interface helps
>
> Well, I2Se (or as it seems the Muse-Initiative) will, by virtue of allowing
> us to use decent Interface systems and a proper implementation of a Master
> clock in the DAC.
First off, I2S was defined as an internal standard by Philips. Second,
the "Muse-Initiative" was an attempt to define an external standard of
high quality and flexibility and was/is supported by several
manufacturers including, at first, SF and UA. Third, they chose to go
another way which may or may not be superior with present technology but
which destroys hope of a real standard. (SF stuff talks only to SF stuff
via I2Se. At least 4 manufacturers showed stuff at WCES which were I2S
compatible and interconnectible.)
Kal
=========================================================================
From: Torsten.Loesch@FinanceManager.Finance.FinanceAndInformation.enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk
Subject: Re(2): I2S digital interface
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:57:26 +0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n171
Guido,
> Most jitter is not due to SPDIF, but to bad drives (EMC, oscillators)
Partially, but the S/PDIF Interface itself will cause Data-related
jitter and it does not allow for the Clock to be kept at the DAC
where any numbers of re-clocking excercises and so on can eliminate
jitter as long as the Master-Clock the DAC uses is free of jitter.
This can remove Interface-jitter, jitter caused by the DSP routines
in the Digital Filter and whatever else (decent implementation using
proper RF/High-Speed Digital construction techniques is of course
mandatory).
> Once that jittering SPDIF appears at your DAC, all the silicon there messes
> it up again
Correct.
> No interface helps
Well, I2Se (or as it seems the Muse-Initiative) will, by virtue of allowing
us to use decent Interface systems and a proper implementation of a Master
clock in the DAC.
> Solve the problem somewere else
Correcto Guido - how about "Play more records..." :-).
Later Thorsten
=========================================================================
From: Kalman Rubinson <rubinsnk@is2.nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: Re(2): Re(2): I2S digital interface
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:17:10 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n171
On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 Torsten.Loesch@FinanceManager.Finance.FinanceAndInformation.enhar-ha.nthames.nhs
.uk wrote:
> Fine. Not many people (read consumers) where told. It may have
> appeared in Stereophile somewhere among the small-print, but I
> do not remember reading about it.
In an IndustryUpdate in Stereophile as well as an AES standard proposal.
> > Third, they chose to go another way which may or may not be superior
> > with present technology but which destroys hope of a real standard.
>
> Ahh.... Feels just like home, DVD-Aduio only and several dozend other
> major cock-ups in the Industry. Will they ever learn?
Some people never learn. (But that's another joke....)
> > (SF stuff talks only to SF stuff via I2Se. At least 4 manufacturers
> > showed stuff at WCES which were I2S compatible and interconnectible.)
>
> Nice. And SF may end up outselling these in numbers or not. What gives
> that a bit of a bad taste is that UA and SF go about it pretty much as
> if they had invented this particular sliced bread and everybody will
> soon cul along their lines....
Right! I feel particularly culpable since I brought AU/SF into the fold
by telling them, over cocktails, about the standards initiative.
Kal
=========================================================================
From: Torsten.Loesch@FinanceManager.Finance.FinanceAndInformation.enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk
Subject: Re(2): Re(2): I2S digital interface
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:11:26 +0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n171
Kal,
> First off, I2S was defined as an internal standard by Philips.
Agreed. The problem with the original I2S was that no real standard
exists(ed) to define how an external connection using this interface
could be accomplished.
Thus we ended up with S-VHS Lead from Audio Alchemy, Bow Technologies
four BNC Sockets and someone even used a 5-pin Din (if I remeber
correctly - terrible Idea realy).
> Second, the "Muse-Initiative" was an attempt to define an external
> standard of high quality and flexibility and was/is supported by
> several manufacturers including, at first, SF and UA.
Fine. Not many people (read consumers) where told. It may have
appeared in Stereophile somewhere among the small-print, but I
do not remember reading about it.
> Third, they chose to go another way which may or may not be superior
> with present technology but which destroys hope of a real standard.
Ahh.... Feels just like home, DVD-Aduio only and several dozend other
major cock-ups in the Industry. Will they ever learn?
> (SF stuff talks only to SF stuff via I2Se. At least 4 manufacturers
> showed stuff at WCES which were I2S compatible and interconnectible.)
Nice. And SF may end up outselling these in numbers or not. What gives
that a bit of a bad taste is that UA and SF go about it pretty much as
if they had invented this particular sliced bread and everybody will
soon cul along their lines....
As said, I'll sit that one out with killer-tweaked One-Box CD-Players
(maybe with a second Box to hold a external PSU....) and expect to go
through a few (sorta figure one $ 500 Player every year and a half)
before it is over.
Tell me when the war is over and it's safe to come out again. For
all you Joe-Netters, I recommend taking cover too. Otherwise you'll
end up with more obsolete, incompatible, expensive gear before long,
which will not even make good boat-anchors due to the missing "Dunker
Factor" in Digital Hardware....
:-))
Later Thorsten
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: Re(2): I2S digital interface
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:53:51 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n171
At 10:57 26-1-98 +0000,
Torsten.Loesch@FinanceManager.Finance.FinanceAndInformation.enh wrote:
>Guido,
>
>> Most jitter is not due to SPDIF, but to bad drives (EMC, oscillators)
>
>Partially, but the S/PDIF Interface itself will cause Data-related
>jitter and it does not allow for the Clock to be kept at the DAC
>where any numbers of re-clocking excercises and so on can eliminate
>jitter as long as the Master-Clock the DAC uses is free of jitter.
>
>This can remove Interface-jitter, jitter caused by the DSP routines
>in the Digital Filter and whatever else (decent implementation using
>proper RF/High-Speed Digital construction techniques is of course
>mandatory).
>
>> Once that jittering SPDIF appears at your DAC, all the silicon there messes
>> it up again
>
>Correct.
>
>> No interface helps
>
>Well, I2Se (or as it seems the Muse-Initiative) will, by virtue of allowing
>us to use decent Interface systems and a proper implementation of a Master
>clock in the DAC.
OK, so it will become less difficult
>> Solve the problem somewere else
>
>Correcto Guido - how about "Play more records..." :-).
That's what I am doing !
I am also in the process of building a decent DAC, with al the knowledge
that I have now
It will consist of much re-clockers, 4-layer PCB, local decoupling caps and
ferrite beads mostly. You will hardly recognice the chips :-)
Guido
>Later Thorsten
>
>
=========================================================================
From: "Norman Tracy" <ntracy@galstar.com>
Subject: Re: I2S digital interface
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:49:57 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n174
Guido wrote in reference to the I**2Se thread:
> Hi all,
> Most jitter is not due to SPDIF, but to bad drives (EMC, oscillators)
> Once that jittering SPDIF appears at your DAC, all the silicon there
messes
> it up again
> No interface helps
> Solve the problem somewere else
> have fun
> Guido
I like this guy! How about the ECL based master clock 5 cm away from the
DAC chip and to hell with the PLL derived signal correlated jitter in the
S/PDIF link? That is how X-DAC 3.0 does it! Asynchronous operation + NO PLL
derived master clock = pure bliss.
One down side of I**2S in its now many forms (standards? more like plug and
pray, what's that? plug the DAC into the DSS receiver and LD player? just a
minute while I take the lids off and add a few wires...) is the many wires
between data source and DAC make it that much harder to keep ground gunk
and RFI from the transport and air out of the DAC. While beating up on poor
old S/PDIF don't forget with one little (good CMR) transformer we get mucho
isolation. The TTL de-emphasis signals with their DC coupling and need for
a solid ground between devices I consider a real downside of I**2S. One can
resort to opto isolators and such, but what a ha$$le.
Of course as He Man DIY Solder Slingers we can just get Kal's TAA (now
Audio Electronics) articles and roll our own. While planning the project
keep in mind X-DAC 3.0 has a header (DSP Port) allowing your I**2S signals
to be plugged right in with very minimal mods to the DAC.
happy listening
Norman Tracy
Audio Crafters Guild
ntracy@galstar.com
http://galstar.com/~ntracy/ACG/
=========================================================================
From: Kalman Rubinson <rubinsnk@is2.nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: I2S digital interface
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:54:21 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n175
On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Norman Tracy wrote:
> I like this guy! How about the ECL based master clock 5 cm away from the
> DAC chip and to hell with the PLL derived signal correlated jitter in the
> S/PDIF link? That is how X-DAC 3.0 does it! Asynchronous operation + NO PLL
> derived master clock = pure bliss.
Better.
> One down side of I**2S in its now many forms (standards? more like plug and
> pray, what's that? plug the DAC into the DSS receiver and LD player? just a
> minute while I take the lids off and add a few wires...)
Not a problem, so far.
> is the many wires
> between data source and DAC make it that much harder to keep ground gunk
> and RFI from the transport and air out of the DAC. While beating up on poor
> old S/PDIF don't forget with one little (good CMR) transformer we get mucho
> isolation. The TTL de-emphasis signals with their DC coupling and need for
> a solid ground between devices I consider a real downside of I**2S. One can
> resort to opto isolators and such, but what a ha$$le.
That's one of the issues addressed by the (proposed) standard which
includes a balanced signal line.
> Of course as He Man DIY Solder Slingers we can just get Kal's TAA (now
> Audio Electronics) articles and roll our own. While planning the project
> keep in mind X-DAC 3.0 has a header (DSP Port) allowing your I**2S signals
> to be plugged right in with very minimal mods to the DAC.
Way to go.
Kal
=========================================================================
From: Torsten.Loesch@FinanceManager.Finance.FinanceAndInformation.enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk
Subject: Re(2): I2S digital interface
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:13:49 +0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n175
Hi all,
> > I like this guy! How about the ECL based master clock 5 cm away from the
> > DAC chip and to hell with the PLL derived signal correlated jitter in the
> > S/PDIF link? That is how X-DAC 3.0 does it! Asynchronous operation + NO
PLL
> > derived master clock = pure bliss.
>
> Better.
I completly agree. Mucho better.
That said, the CS4812 + AD1890 + CS4329 Combo (with a one-chip Clock) I
was faffeling around never managed to sound better or even close to my
extremo tweaked Marantz CD-67 CD-Player.
That has the Clock ON CHIP with the DAC but with seperate PSU-Pins, so
you can feed a clean Power to it. Then they buffer the clock and fan it
out to the rest of the Player (X-Port, Decoder....).
I never understood how Marantz could get such lousy jitter results
(actually I do - just put a 'scope on the PSU Line to X-Tal oscillator -
I've seen less junk in overflowing dumpsters.... and all these long
unshielded, unterminated PCB Traces carrying digital clocks and
signals).
> > Of course as He Man DIY Solder Slingers we can just get Kal's TAA (now
> > Audio Electronics) articles and roll our own.
>
> Way to go.
Of course. Whichever way you go, don't wa$te mega $$$ on the latest
digital. A little DIY goes a long way....
Later Thorsten
=========================================================================
From: "Norman Tracy" <ntracy@galstar.com>
Subject: Re: Re(2): I2S digital interface
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 00:27:29 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n175
Guido writes:
> That's what I am doing !
>
> I am also in the process of building a decent DAC, with al the knowledge
> that I have now
>
> It will consist of much re-clockers, 4-layer PCB, local decoupling caps
and
> ferrite beads mostly. You will hardly recognice the chips :-)
Guido is getting serious here guys. If you have ever priced fab charges of
4 layer PCBs you know he is putting his money where his mouth is.
Guido, Torsten, and anyone else who is into digital audio DIY or related
projects. On the ACG web site we have a section devoted to displaying your
projects. Would LOVE to have more to put up, always liked looking at pretty
pictures and hearing about interesting projects. Send me your JPEGs or pics
to scan and a description to share and inspire.
Reminds me to ask Doc Bottlehead, did you get that site up you wanted me to
link to from ACG's 'eXtreme audio' page?
Norman Tracy
Audio Crafters Guild
ntracy@galstar.com
http://galstar.com/~ntracy/ACG/
=========================================================================
From: Kalman Rubinson <rubinsnk@is2.nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: I2S digital interface
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:55:52 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n176
On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, evaguido wrote:
> >How about the ECL based master clock 5 cm away from the
> >DAC chip and to hell with the PLL derived signal correlated jitter in the
> >S/PDIF link? That is how X-DAC 3.0 does it! Asynchronous operation + NO PLL
> >derived master clock = pure bliss.
>
> But you need to secure any synchronisation, otherwise you're going to miss
> some samples, not ?
Not if he uses the wclk.
> I would like to propose at least BNC connectors, and a coax with lo
> transfer-impedance ! (the rest of the expensive digital cable crap is of no
> importance, cheap RG223 works very fine)
The 13W3 connector proposed as standard for the I2S is just fine as the 3
coax connectors are at least as suitable as BNCs.
Kal
=========================================================================
From: Torsten.Loesch@FinanceManager.Finance.FinanceAndInformation.enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk
Subject: Re(2): Re(2): I2S digital interface
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:27:05 +0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n176
Hi,
> But not enough !
Probably not. Very little is.
> Why writing "mucho" ? My (Spanish) girlfriend ask herself if Thorsten is
> Spanish ?
Long sad story (don't ask). A long ex-girlfriend of mine was from Cuba.
Back then I did pick up a few spanish words that tend to stick around
in the back of my head and jump out at the funniest moments....
Later Thorsten
=========================================================================
From: Torsten.Loesch@FinanceManager.Finance.FinanceAndInformation.enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk
Subject: Re(2): Re(2): I2S digital interface
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:40:52 +0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n176
Yo dudes.
> Yep. the 4-layer will be around $100
Not so bad actually. For silicon do you use Burr-Brown/NPC or
do you go (as one might expect) with Philips? Crystal?
> (putting series resistors in data-lines too)
Absolutly essential. And replace the Datalines with Belden
Mini-Coax (unless you can have that 4-Layer Board and made
the Data-lines there proper transmission lines).
Later Thorsten
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: Re(2): I2S digital interface
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:21:55 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n176
>> > I like this guy! How about the ECL based master clock 5 cm away from the
>> > DAC chip and to hell with the PLL derived signal correlated jitter in the
>> > S/PDIF link? That is how X-DAC 3.0 does it! Asynchronous operation + NO
>PLL
>> > derived master clock = pure bliss.
>>
>> Better.
>
>I completly agree. Mucho better.
But not enough !
Why writing "mucho" ? My (Spanish) girlfriend ask herself if Thorsten is
Spanish ?
Guido
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: Re(2): I2S digital interface
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:22:17 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n176
Hi Norman, others
>Guido writes:
>> That's what I am doing !
>>
>> I am also in the process of building a decent DAC, with al the knowledge
>> that I have now
>>
>> It will consist of much re-clockers, 4-layer PCB, local decoupling caps
>and
>> ferrite beads mostly. You will hardly recognice the chips :-)
>
>Guido is getting serious here guys. If you have ever priced fab charges of
>4 layer PCBs you know he is putting his money where his mouth is.
Yep. the 4-layer will be around $100
>Guido, Torsten, and anyone else who is into digital audio DIY or related
>projects. On the ACG web site we have a section devoted to displaying your
>projects. Would LOVE to have more to put up, always liked looking at pretty
>pictures and hearing about interesting projects. Send me your JPEGs or pics
>to scan and a description to share and inspire.
I'll have to contact the group, I am not the only-one involved in the design
Keep you informed !
Guido
(putting series resistors in data-lines too)
>Reminds me to ask Doc Bottlehead, did you get that site up you wanted me to
>link to from ACG's 'eXtreme audio' page?
>
>Norman Tracy
>Audio Crafters Guild
>ntracy@galstar.com
>http://galstar.com/~ntracy/ACG/
>
>
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: I2S digital interface
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:41:15 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n176
At 23:49 28-1-98 -0600, Norman Tracy wrote:
>Guido wrote in reference to the I**2Se thread:
>> Hi all,
>> Most jitter is not due to SPDIF, but to bad drives (EMC, oscillators)
>> Once that jittering SPDIF appears at your DAC, all the silicon there
>messes
>> it up again
>> No interface helps
>> Solve the problem somewere else
>> have fun
>> Guido
>
>I like this guy!
Well Norman, you know what we are doing, more or less !
>How about the ECL based master clock 5 cm away from the
>DAC chip and to hell with the PLL derived signal correlated jitter in the
>S/PDIF link? That is how X-DAC 3.0 does it! Asynchronous operation + NO PLL
>derived master clock = pure bliss.
But you need to secure any synchronisation, otherwise you're going to miss
some samples, not ?
>One down side of I**2S in its now many forms (standards? more like plug and
>pray, what's that? plug the DAC into the DSS receiver and LD player? just a
>minute while I take the lids off and add a few wires...) is the many wires
>between data source and DAC make it that much harder to keep ground gunk
>and RFI from the transport and air out of the DAC. While beating up on poor
>old S/PDIF don't forget with one little (good CMR) transformer we get mucho
>isolation. The TTL de-emphasis signals with their DC coupling and need for
>a solid ground between devices I consider a real downside of I**2S. One can
>resort to opto isolators and such, but what a ha$$le.
I would like to propose at least BNC connectors, and a coax with lo
transfer-impedance ! (the rest of the expensive digital cable crap is of no
importance, cheap RG223 works very fine)
have fun,
- -
Guido
>Of course as He Man DIY Solder Slingers we can just get Kal's TAA (now
>Audio Electronics) articles and roll our own. While planning the project
>keep in mind X-DAC 3.0 has a header (DSP Port) allowing your I**2S signals
>to be plugged right in with very minimal mods to the DAC.
>
>happy listening
>
>Norman Tracy
>Audio Crafters Guild
>ntracy@galstar.com
>http://galstar.com/~ntracy/ACG/
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Torsten.Loesch@FinanceManager.Finance.FinanceAndInformation.enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk
Subject: Re(2): I2S digital interface
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 20:03:23 +0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n177
Hi all,
> >How about the ECL based master clock 5 cm away from the
> >DAC chip and to hell with the PLL derived signal correlated jitter in the
> >S/PDIF link? That is how X-DAC 3.0 does it! Asynchronous operation + NO
PLL
> >derived master clock = pure bliss.
>
> But you need to secure any synchronisation, otherwise you're going to miss
> some samples, not ?
Well, here is where the Norman Tracy fingerprints come in. This guy
actually uses an asyncronus Sample-rate Convertor to generate his Signal
from a fresh and clean Clock.
That Chip is from Analog Device (though other companies make similar ones)
and was also used by Tricord UK in their "Jitterbuster Box" (forgot the
name).
There are of course a few issues with this approach and as allways you
win some and you loose some. You must know what you want.
As I understand it, the X-DAC is currently more or less frozen in
development while Norman waits for "Hell to Freeze Over" or a Audio
only DVD standard to be agreed (Hell freezing over is way more
likely to happen - even though there is no hell in the Bible).
As the current state of affairs does not look too promising for a real
standard, how about some more work on the X-DAC (maybe 4?) to fit the
CS4390 and to sort out a more optimised Layout.
That should make sure the X-DAC walks all over any commercial DAC!?
I have sorted out a concept for a differential Valved Output stage BTW
(single dual Triode per channel), so one of these day's I'll fit that
to my Marantz CD-67 Player.... No time at the moment though.
If someone wants to try the concept, drop me an e-mail and I pop the
Circuit over....
The same thing should work very well with all the various differential
DAC's from Crystal.
I'll keep you all posted.
Later Thorsten
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: Re(2): Re(2): I2S digital interface
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 21:37:53 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n177
At 19:40 30-1-98 +0000,
Torsten.Loesch@FinanceManager.Finance.FinanceAndInformation.enh wrote:
>Yo dudes.
>
>> Yep. the 4-layer will be around $100
>
>Not so bad actually. For silicon do you use Burr-Brown/NPC or
>do you go (as one might expect) with Philips? Crystal?
Crystal 8412, Nippon 5842 and Burr Brown 63
>> (putting series resistors in data-lines too)
>
>Absolutly essential. And replace the Datalines with Belden
>Mini-Coax (unless you can have that 4-Layer Board and made
>the Data-lines there proper transmission lines).
You can make a pretty decent transmission line on a PCB
regards
Guido
>Later Thorsten
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Hartmut <Hartmut.Quaschik@mch.sni.de>
Subject: I am getting several invalid mails from JOENET with only --HAA26163.904599853/kryptonite.sg
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 13:57:21 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n409
e.net-- or the like in the body
T. Loesch wrote:
>
> --HAA26163.904599853/kryptonite.sge.net--
=========================================================================
From: Joe Pledger <doodle@navicom.com>
Subject: Re: I am getting several invalid mails from JOENET with only --HAA26163.904599853/kryptonit
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 07:45:56 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n410
e.sge.net-- or the like in the body
Hartmut wrote:
>
> T. Loesch wrote:
> >
> > --HAA26163.904599853/kryptonite.sge.net--
Same here, Hartmut.. I thought it might be the jump code to launch
sentient tattoos (virtual reality) with the MIR virus! ;-) Gotta
quit reading Si Fi late at night,I guess. ;-)
Joe Pledger
=========================================================================
From: Kalman Rubinson <kr4@is2.nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: I am getting several invalid mails from JOENET with only --HAA26163.904599853/kryptonit
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:46:46 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n410
e.sge.net-- or the like in the body
On Tue, 1 Sep 1998, Hartmut wrote:
> T. Loesch wrote:
> >
> > --HAA26163.904599853/kryptonite.sge.net--
>
Same here.
Kal
=========================================================================
From: Ron Bales <rbales@gte.net>
Subject: Re: I am getting several invalid mails from JOENET with only --HAA26163.904599853/kryptonit
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 15:11:10 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n410
e.sge.net-- or the like in the body
So it isn't just me. This is how yours arrived.
ROn
Hartmut wrote:
>
> T. Loesch wrote:
> >
> > --HAA26163.904599853/kryptonite.sge.net--
=========================================================================
From: Grover Gardner <groverg@postoffice.att.net>
Subject: I am very sad
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 14:44:00 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n436
I am generally a very positive person, but today I am very sad and upset.
I went to Tower Records last night with the usual degree of anticipation,
but I see now that they are charging $18 for new releases, including things
that used to be "mid-priced". I realized that I can no longer afford to
buy music. I got into a heated argument with a salesperson, like an idiot
I complained at the front checkout desk (like they care), then I came home
and looked at this beautiful stereo thing I have been building and I
wondered, "Why? Why am I making this? So I can support greedy business
people?"
I have been a music collector for almost 35 years, starting when I
discovered a scratched and worn Benny Goodman lp in my sister's room. When
record prices went above $10 it was a stretch, but there was still lots of
budget stuff around. When CDs came out at $15 it was a shock, but I
thought, well, they last forever so I guess it's a fair price--at least I
won't have to replace them every few years (which, so far I haven't thank
god). When they went up to $16 I thought, well, okay, this is a bit high
but with a bit of luck, some sales and an occasional splurge, I can still
manage.
But last night was the proverbial last straw. Who can afford to buy these
things in any meaningful quantity?
So what does one do?--look for occasional sales, buy only budget stuff,
like Naxos, haunt the used shops, join a record club? I used to feel that,
if I kept a reasonable head, I was pretty much free to trot to the store
and pick up two or three nice things for fun. This isn't fun any more.
Am I getting old and fuddy-duddy? Do others feel the recording companies
have pushed this too far? Is there some sort of protest movement afoot,
some petition one can sign?
I keep hearing that CD sales are declining. No wonder! For years I've put
my budget on the line and my savings in limbo to indulge this hobby. I
guess it's time to stop. I'll build that phono stage I've been swearing
I'll get around to and haunt the thrift shops, getting music for a buck.
Could be worse, right? :-)
Still, I find this incredibly depressing.
Grover Gardner
groverg@postoffice.att.net
=========================================================================
From: Scott Grammer <tubedude@cdc.net>
Subject: Re: I am very sad
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 15:11:16 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n436
Grover Gardner wrote:
> I am generally a very positive person, but today I am very sad and upset.
>
> I went to Tower Records last night with the usual degree of anticipation,
> but I see now that they are charging $18 for new releases, including things
> that used to be "mid-priced". I realized that I can no longer afford to
> buy music. (snip)
I understand and agree. There is a CD out on Rounder Records called "Old and In
The Way". I use to have it years ago on vinyl. Every place I have looked I have
found this 20 year old recording priced at $18-$20. And I mean for the last two
years, at least! I refuse to pay that kind of money for a recording. It's just
too damn much.
S.G.
- --
Check out TubeDude's Webpage of Vacuum Tube Lore! at
http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude/
Also see my new website, Smoke Free Youth! at
http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude/smokefreeyouth.html
=========================================================================
From: "Ken Dangerfield" <bpyakd@mail.island.net>
Subject: Re: I am very sad
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 14:22:49 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n437
On 2 Oct 98 Grover Gardner said:
<snip>
> Do others feel the recording
> companies have pushed this too far?
Bingo. I know from representing clients in the music industry that
the songwriters, music publishers and recording artists aren't seeing
any more of this fat price. The songwriters and publishers receive
the same mechanical royalty regardless of the format. And the
recording artist sometimes actually ends up receiving less on a CD
than a cassette or vinyl after the royalty rate grinding mechanism is
finished doing its nasty work. And it costs a buck or less to
manufacture CDs. What's wrong with this picture?
Regards,
Ken Dangerfield
=========================================================================
From: Audio1Nut@aol.com
Subject: Re: I am very sad
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 15:18:29 EDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n437
In a message dated 10/2/98 11:56:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
groverg@postoffice.att.net writes:
<< I went to Tower Records last night with the usual degree of anticipation,
but I see now that they are charging $18 for new releases, including things
that used to be "mid-priced". I realized that I can no longer afford to
buy music. I got into a heated argument with a salesperson, like an idiot
I complained at the front checkout desk (like they care), then I came home
and looked at this beautiful stereo thing I have been building and I
wondered, "Why? Why am I making this? So I can support greedy business
people?" >>
No you are not alone. I think $18 for a CD for a CD is way too much. That's
why I stop buying from Tower. I only buy from BMG club, all I have to do is
wait for the CD to become available. $18 is the price for DVD; as mass
production become cheaper, CD should become cheaper. I always think that
Tower record always charge a very high price. Stop buying from them.
=========================================================================
From: Dan Kerl <dlkerl@ro.com>
Subject: Re: I am very sad
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 15:20:54 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n437
I've been using http://www.cdworld.com/ for awhile now with
no complaint. New release pricing is discounted around 3 bucks;
your $17.97 cd runs $14.97. Of course, you have to pick up
the shipping tab, but its not much worse than sales tax if you
buy more than one disc at a time. YMMV.
I'd like to see how the take on these things is split up.
How much goes to artist's royalties, how much to the production
company, how much to the record company, how much to the
attorneys, how much to umbrella organizations like BMI/ASCAP,
how much to the channel, how much to the end retailer, etc.
The physical media has gotten really cheap, so the bulk of
the money must be going someplace else.
Free enterprise at work. If people quit buying the product,
the prices will come down.
- --
Dan Kerl
dlkerl@ro.com
=========================================================================
From: steven <stevensl@mindspring.net>
Subject: Re: I am very sad
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 15:45:16 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n437
Hehe..
I'm a 27 year old gen-X-er and i have been pissed over CD prices for
years!
One popular store (MediaPlay) used to be the bargain basement.. $11.99 was
expensive there.. now $14.99 is cheap for a CD.
In this town god forbid you can get good priced vinyl.
I've gone to Mp3's myself.. not only do i spend a lot of time in front of
the computer (work ya know) but i find the price of Mp3's quite good
(free) and the quality is even better. Until i ran out of storage space i
was encoding every cd i own and starting on the LP's. Once i get a good
cd burner i'm going to borrow every album i can and burn burn burn!
Steven S. >>> 403forbidden.net
"You don't blame the camera for pornography.
Why do you blame the gun for murder?"
On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Grover Gardner wrote:
> I am generally a very positive person, but today I am very sad and upset.
>
> I went to Tower Records last night with the usual degree of anticipation,
> but I see now that they are charging $18 for new releases, including things
> that used to be "mid-priced". I realized that I can no longer afford to
> buy music. I got into a heated argument with a salesperson, like an idiot
> I complained at the front checkout desk (like they care), then I came home
> and looked at this beautiful stereo thing I have been building and I
> wondered, "Why? Why am I making this? So I can support greedy business
> people?"
>
> I have been a music collector for almost 35 years, starting when I
> discovered a scratched and worn Benny Goodman lp in my sister's room. When
> record prices went above $10 it was a stretch, but there was still lots of
> budget stuff around. When CDs came out at $15 it was a shock, but I
> thought, well, they last forever so I guess it's a fair price--at least I
> won't have to replace them every few years (which, so far I haven't thank
> god). When they went up to $16 I thought, well, okay, this is a bit high
> but with a bit of luck, some sales and an occasional splurge, I can still
> manage.
>
> But last night was the proverbial last straw. Who can afford to buy these
> things in any meaningful quantity?
>
> So what does one do?--look for occasional sales, buy only budget stuff,
> like Naxos, haunt the used shops, join a record club? I used to feel that,
> if I kept a reasonable head, I was pretty much free to trot to the store
> and pick up two or three nice things for fun. This isn't fun any more.
>
> Am I getting old and fuddy-duddy? Do others feel the recording companies
> have pushed this too far? Is there some sort of protest movement afoot,
> some petition one can sign?
>
> I keep hearing that CD sales are declining. No wonder! For years I've put
> my budget on the line and my savings in limbo to indulge this hobby. I
> guess it's time to stop. I'll build that phono stage I've been swearing
> I'll get around to and haunt the thrift shops, getting music for a buck.
> Could be worse, right? :-)
>
> Still, I find this incredibly depressing.
>
> Grover Gardner
> groverg@postoffice.att.net
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Kalman Rubinson <kr4@is2.nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: I am very sad
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 16:18:17 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n437
On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, steven wrote:
> I've gone to Mp3's myself.. not only do i spend a lot of time in front of
> the computer (work ya know) but i find the price of Mp3's quite good
> (free) and the quality is even better.
Off the 'net? Glad you could find anything useful.
> Until i ran out of storage space i
> was encoding every cd i own and starting on the LP's. Once i get a good
> cd burner i'm going to borrow every album i can and burn burn burn!
Life's too short to do that. I play what I've got, buy what
I must have and scrounge the fleas for vinyl.
Kal
=========================================================================
From: Dave Stagner <dstagner@icarus.net>
Subject: Re: I am very sad
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 16:36:40 -0500 (CDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n437
On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Dan Kerl wrote:
> I'd like to see how the take on these things is split up.
> How much goes to artist's royalties, how much to the production
> company, how much to the record company, how much to the
> attorneys, how much to umbrella organizations like BMI/ASCAP,
> how much to the channel, how much to the end retailer, etc.
> The physical media has gotten really cheap, so the bulk of
> the money must be going someplace else.
Anyone remember the Alan Parsons Project lawsuit? Back when music came
out on both vinyl and CD, Alan Parsons sued his record label. They were
charging *more* for CD than vinyl, even though the CD cost less to make
and distribute, and he was getting the same royalties (even though the
company made more profits).
He lost.
Of course, with a little luck, you can probably find "Tales of Mystery and
Imagination" on vinyl for a quarter at some garage sale.
Other interesting developments in record industry greed... the RIAA has
finally acknowledged the existence of "fair use" when it comes to
sampling. This came basically due to threat of an antitrust investigation
stemming from RIAA's ongoing molestation of Negativland, a very
interesting little group that works with samples. Now, Negativland isn't
some cheesy hip-hop group stealing a great beat a la MC Hammer's use of
"Superfreak". They're media-hacker artists, using the samples to
criticize the source. Negativland has long argued that their use of
samples falls under "fair use" and is not a copyright violation. In their
latest fight, the RIAA warned CD manufacturers that they would be
prohibited from manufacturing RIAA-licensed music if they manufactured CDs
for Negativland's most recent album. This got the attention of numerous
civil liberties groups. At best, it is a monopolistic use of power. At
worst, it would be a "regulatory function", equivalent to government
interference, and as such would be prior restraint. Rather than risk
having their monopoly questioned in court, RIAA relented, offering to
judge samples as fair use on a case-by-case basis.
- -dave
Practice beautiful randomness and act kind of senseless.
<dstagner@icarus.net>
=========================================================================
From: David MOYLAN <moylan@eden.rutgers.edu>
Subject: Re: I am very sad
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 16:59:58 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n437
Not to make things worse, but I know several people
who run independant record labels which still
press vinyl as well as CDs. According to them, it
is cheaper to press a CD then a 7" record (less than
$1). Wonder where that $18 bucks is going...dave moylan
In a message dated 10/2/98 11:56:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
groverg@postoffice.att.net writes:
>
> << I went to Tower Records last night with the usual degree of anticipation,
> but I see now that they are charging $18 for new releases, including things
> that used to be "mid-priced". I realized that I can no longer afford to
> buy music. I got into a heated argument with a salesperson, like an idiot
> I complained at the front checkout desk (like they care), then I came home
> and looked at this beautiful stereo thing I have been building and I
> wondered, "Why? Why am I making this? So I can support greedy business
> people?" >>
>
=========================================================================
From: steven <stevensl@mindspring.net>
Subject: Re: I am very sad
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 17:21:18 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n437
There was a article in Hi-Fi record review a couple years back..
these might not be exact figures but are close..
the entire manufacturing process costs ~$2.00 this includes packaging
and i "think" marketing is thrown in here.. keep in mind that packaging
includes 4 printed pages for the CD insert.. any more the artist pays out
of their pocket (a friend of mine just had a cd released..)
next comes royalties.. i have no idea how much per unit this is but its
typically not to much maybe a few pennies per unit???? depends i guess..
the rest is pure profit...
Steven S. >>> 403forbidden.net
"You don't blame the camera for pornography.
Why do you blame the gun for murder?"
On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Dan Kerl wrote:
> I've been using http://www.cdworld.com/ for awhile now with
> no complaint. New release pricing is discounted around 3 bucks;
> your $17.97 cd runs $14.97. Of course, you have to pick up
> the shipping tab, but its not much worse than sales tax if you
> buy more than one disc at a time. YMMV.
>
> I'd like to see how the take on these things is split up.
> How much goes to artist's royalties, how much to the production
> company, how much to the record company, how much to the
> attorneys, how much to umbrella organizations like BMI/ASCAP,
> how much to the channel, how much to the end retailer, etc.
> The physical media has gotten really cheap, so the bulk of
> the money must be going someplace else.
>
> Free enterprise at work. If people quit buying the product,
> the prices will come down.
>
> --
> Dan Kerl
> dlkerl@ro.com
>
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: I am very sad
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 23:10:31 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n437
Grover,
Its like a cow: Do milk her as long as people buy milk
In Holland CD releases tend to be Hfl 40,- ($21) but usually Hfl 43,- is no
exception
Sad ?
I do not know. New media are abused for a long time now. CD price will be
high untill the next medium becomes popular. What will be next ?
Guido
At 14:44 2-10-98 -0500, Grover Gardner wrote:
>I am generally a very positive person, but today I am very sad and upset.
>
>I went to Tower Records last night with the usual degree of anticipation,
>but I see now that they are charging $18 for new releases, including things
>that used to be "mid-priced". I realized that I can no longer afford to
>buy music. I got into a heated argument with a salesperson, like an idiot
>I complained at the front checkout desk (like they care), then I came home
>and looked at this beautiful stereo thing I have been building and I
>wondered, "Why? Why am I making this? So I can support greedy business
>people?"
>
>I have been a music collector for almost 35 years, starting when I
>discovered a scratched and worn Benny Goodman lp in my sister's room. When
>record prices went above $10 it was a stretch, but there was still lots of
>budget stuff around. When CDs came out at $15 it was a shock, but I
>thought, well, they last forever so I guess it's a fair price--at least I
>won't have to replace them every few years (which, so far I haven't thank
>god). When they went up to $16 I thought, well, okay, this is a bit high
>but with a bit of luck, some sales and an occasional splurge, I can still
>manage.
>
>But last night was the proverbial last straw. Who can afford to buy these
>things in any meaningful quantity?
>
>So what does one do?--look for occasional sales, buy only budget stuff,
>like Naxos, haunt the used shops, join a record club? I used to feel that,
>if I kept a reasonable head, I was pretty much free to trot to the store
>and pick up two or three nice things for fun. This isn't fun any more.
>
>Am I getting old and fuddy-duddy? Do others feel the recording companies
>have pushed this too far? Is there some sort of protest movement afoot,
>some petition one can sign?
>
>I keep hearing that CD sales are declining. No wonder! For years I've put
>my budget on the line and my savings in limbo to indulge this hobby. I
>guess it's time to stop. I'll build that phono stage I've been swearing
>I'll get around to and haunt the thrift shops, getting music for a buck.
>Could be worse, right? :-)
>
>Still, I find this incredibly depressing.
>
>Grover Gardner
>groverg@postoffice.att.net
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: David Bardes <David_Bardes@zd.com>
Subject: Re: I am very sad
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 14:28:29 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n438
Dan,
Your list, which I guess just scratches the surface, demonstrates a big
part of the problem. Too many folks with their fingers in the pie!!!!
David
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dan Wrote:
I'd like to see how the take on these things is split up.
How much goes to artist's royalties, how much to the production
company, how much to the record company, how much to the
attorneys, how much to umbrella organizations like BMI/ASCAP,
how much to the channel, how much to the end retailer, etc.
The physical media has gotten really cheap, so the bulk of
the money must be going someplace else.
=========================================================================
From: Grego Sanguinetti <grego@lscpdx.latticesemi.com>
Subject: Re: I am very sad
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 16:09:03 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n438
> the entire manufacturing process costs ~$2.00 this includes packaging
> and i "think" marketing is thrown in here.. keep in mind that packaging
It would have to include marketing. The last time my record company
did a CD (couple of years ago) the manufacturing cost per unit, unloaded
with production NRE, was $1.85US, which included an 8 page 4 color insert.
This is for the first run of 2,000 units.
Second run is cheaper, unloading glass mastering cost, and production
runs come down under $1.00/CD.
The distributor takes 50%. Typically you sell the CD's to the disti
at $4. They sell them to the store at $8. The retail stores mark up
from there. Buy-back clauses vary depending on the leverage of the
disti and retail outlets.
Some are even more lop-sided. Like for instance, if you want shelf
space at Boarders, you have to pay them. $2,000/month per store.
So, you see that every link in the chain doubles the price. The
profits per unit increase the farther down stream you are. The
recording company that actually did the recording and the artist
are usually not the enemy, unless they happen to be Garth Brooks
or Michael Jackson. It's the big disti's and retail chains like
Sony Music, Tower, Blockbuster... that are sucking the blood.
In Sony's case, they are sucking the blood at all ends...
small record companies are an act of love, not profit.
just say no. refuse to buy at overinflated prices. But if an
artist or very small record company is asking $10-15 for
a CD direct, then you are actually supporting the cause and
probably not at a profit.
- -grego
=========================================================================
From: Grego Sanguinetti <grego@lscpdx.latticesemi.com>
Subject: Re: I am very sad
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 16:36:03 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n438
> What I am most familiar with is punk bands, so we're talking releases
> of 1000-5000 CD's.
>
> Typically you can mfr 1000 cd's in the US$0.75 each range with the
> silkscreen,
> add printing costs of the back panel and insert.
The printing costs overshadow the CD if you go with a booklet. Hell
the production costs of the graphics can be as much as the recording.
That is why low budget release only have a fold-over insert.
> Add cost of recording. low 1000's (for punk bands) to well into the 5
> figures
> for a major label release (which will sell many thousands, typically).
> so maybe a buck a disc extra. so that still leaves you under about $3
> each.
Alot more than that and it doesn't take a major label release. It is just
a question of quality. For a punk band, it may not matter. But if you
want a real good studio with a great sounding room, top quality mikes,
2" analog tape.... expect to pay ~$1,000/day with engineer (or more).
If you want real good quality mastering expect another $1000+ for that.
Add producer costs (varies all over the map).
The last project I did was $25,000 fully loaded for the first 2000 CD's.
Done as high quality as we could afford but getting pretty good deals
(at the time) and alot of free labor, like all the graphics production
was free (saved us probably $7,000) except the master imaging.
Sometimes you get lucky and the studio's find themselves with excess
capacity. Then things can get much cheaper B^)
As with most things, you get what you pay for. And if you do a cheap
job at producing the CD, it doesn't matter what system you play it
back on, it won't get any better.
Of course for some material, it doesn't matter. Also, given a choice,
I would rather listen to great music, poorly recorded and played back
on a boom box, than stuff I didn't like recorded by angels and
played back on God's own stereo... but that's a different sermon.
- -grego
=========================================================================
From: Rhthatcher@ra.rockwell.com
Subject: Re: I am very sad
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 17:53:51 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n438
What I am most familiar with is punk bands, so we're talking releases
of 1000-5000 CD's.
Typically you can mfr 1000 cd's in the US$0.75 each range with the
silkscreen,
add printing costs of the back panel and insert.
Add cost of recording. low 1000's (for punk bands) to well into the 5
figures
for a major label release (which will sell many thousands, typically).
so maybe a buck a disc extra. so that still leaves you under about $3
each.
I go to punk/hardcore show i expect to pay $6-7 for a full length CD, $3
for
a 7" record, and maybe $6 for an LP. Reality is that i pay about $10 for
the CD and $8 for the LP. weird thing is that the LP costs more to make.
even so called "progressive thinking" bands keep up the idea that CDs
should cost more. Still, they make enough that the label can ship them,
take
some cash, and the band still sells them on the road to make extra
gas/food money.
how about the other music industry crime: $25 concert t-shirts!
randy
On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Dan Kerl wrote:
> I've been using http://www.cdworld.com/ for awhile now with
> no complaint. New release pricing is discounted around 3 bucks;
> your $17.97 cd runs $14.97. Of course, you have to pick up
> the shipping tab, but its not much worse than sales tax if you
> buy more than one disc at a time. YMMV.
>
> I'd like to see how the take on these things is split up.
> How much goes to artist's royalties, how much to the production
> company, how much to the record company, how much to the
> attorneys, how much to umbrella organizations like BMI/ASCAP,
> how much to the channel, how much to the end retailer, etc.
> The physical media has gotten really cheap, so the bulk of
> the money must be going someplace else.
>
> Free enterprise at work. If people quit buying the product,
> the prices will come down.
>
> --
> Dan Kerl
> dlkerl@ro.com
>
=========================================================================
From: Roscoe Primrose <roscoe@aiko.com>
Subject: Re: I am very sad
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 21:28:39 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n438
steven wrote:
>
> There was a article in Hi-Fi record review a couple years back..
>
> these might not be exact figures but are close..
>
> the entire manufacturing process costs ~$2.00 this includes packaging
> and i "think" marketing is thrown in here.. keep in mind that packaging
> includes 4 printed pages for the CD insert.. any more the artist pays out
> of their pocket (a friend of mine just had a cd released..)
>
> next comes royalties.. i have no idea how much per unit this is but its
> typically not to much maybe a few pennies per unit???? depends i guess..
>
> the rest is pure profit...
Not quite... While the $2.00 covers the manufacturing and maybe
marketing, the rest is not profit. On top of the manufacturing, there's
the cost of the distributors operations, the cost of actually getting
the disks to the stores, and the cost of operating the stores. Then,
the rest is profit....
Peace
- --
Roscoe Primrose
- -- mailto:roscoe@aiko.com -- http://www.aiko.com/roscoe --
"Once in a while you get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right." Robert Hunter
=========================================================================
From: Dan Kerl <dlkerl@ro.com>
Subject: Re: I am very sad
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 22:17:08 -0500 (CDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n439
Most of the recording industry appears to speak from
both sides of their mouth. I see frequent mention of
how profitable they are to the investment
community, yet they scream and yell about the injuries
they sustain when some 15 year old kid copies a record
on a casette and gives it to a friend. It makes me
want to take my hi-fi stuff and heave it.
It looks like they may get their just desserts in the
near future, with the internet and mp3. all I can
say is that they've brought this upon themselves.
- --
Dan "currently in spring-loaded pissed-off condition" Kerl
dlkerl@ro.com
=========================================================================
From: Joe Pledger <doodle@navicom.com>
Subject: Re: I am very sad
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 23:02:56 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n439
Hi All,
Just my 2 cents...It seems that pressing records was a very labor
intensive operation with skilled workers. CD's are done with a
machine(s), and probably an observer/operator to feed it(them)with
stacks of blanks. Buy the new machine...lay off X number or workers at
$x each, and hire one or two at $x, then amortize the cost of the
machine....you're way ahead on profits. Basic capitalisim, which has
nothing to do with fairness, or consumer benefits. I am told that in the
book business, it's the publishers who reap the profits. Might be the
same in the audio pressing fields.??
Joe Pledger
evaguido wrote:
>
> Grover,
>
> Its like a cow: Do milk her as long as people buy milk
>
> In Holland CD releases tend to be Hfl 40,- ($21) but usually Hfl 43,- is no
> exception
>
> Sad ?
>
> I do not know. New media are abused for a long time now. CD price will be
> high untill the next medium becomes popular. What will be next ?
>
> Guido
>
> At 14:44 2-10-98 -0500, Grover Gardner wrote:
> >I am generally a very positive person, but today I am very sad and upset.
> >
> >I went to Tower Records last night with the usual degree of anticipation,
> >but I see now that they are charging $18 for new releases, including things
> >that used to be "mid-priced". I realized that I can no longer afford to
> >buy music. I got into a heated argument with a salesperson, like an idiot
> >I complained at the front checkout desk (like they care), then I came home
> >and looked at this beautiful stereo thing I have been building and I
> >wondered, "Why? Why am I making this? So I can support greedy business
> >people?"
> >
> >I have been a music collector for almost 35 years, starting when I
> >discovered a scratched and worn Benny Goodman lp in my sister's room. When
> >record prices went above $10 it was a stretch, but there was still lots of
> >budget stuff around. When CDs came out at $15 it was a shock, but I
> >thought, well, they last forever so I guess it's a fair price--at least I
> >won't have to replace them every few years (which, so far I haven't thank
> >god). When they went up to $16 I thought, well, okay, this is a bit high
> >but with a bit of luck, some sales and an occasional splurge, I can still
> >manage.
> >
> >But last night was the proverbial last straw. Who can afford to buy these
> >things in any meaningful quantity?
> >
> >So what does one do?--look for occasional sales, buy only budget stuff,
> >like Naxos, haunt the used shops, join a record club? I used to feel that,
> >if I kept a reasonable head, I was pretty much free to trot to the store
> >and pick up two or three nice things for fun. This isn't fun any more.
> >
> >Am I getting old and fuddy-duddy? Do others feel the recording companies
> >have pushed this too far? Is there some sort of protest movement afoot,
> >some petition one can sign?
> >
> >I keep hearing that CD sales are declining. No wonder! For years I've put
> >my budget on the line and my savings in limbo to indulge this hobby. I
> >guess it's time to stop. I'll build that phono stage I've been swearing
> >I'll get around to and haunt the thrift shops, getting music for a buck.
> >Could be worse, right? :-)
> >
> >Still, I find this incredibly depressing.
> >
> >Grover Gardner
> >groverg@postoffice.att.net
> >
> >
> >
=========================================================================
From: Grover Gardner <groverg@postoffice.att.net>
Subject: Re: I am very sad
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 23:19:04 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n439
Thanks for the comforting words, everyone. Plus a couple of good guffaws
on some other topics. I will check out the online stores and music clubs.
Got to keep music flowing around here, but it's gotta get cheaper!
Grover Gardner
groverg@postoffice.att.net
=========================================================================
From: Mike Thompson <miketom@cari.net>
Subject: Re: I am very sad
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 15:03:42 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n440
Warren Tremain wrote:
> BIG SNIP>
> create and if the republicans in this country have their way no longer will
> the government provide any support for the arts at all
> Pay particular attention to the history of the last time someone eliminated
> copyright controls. (in post revolution France)
>
> warren
Here we go again. The Republicans are killing babies and starving the
old folks too (or is it the opposite?) Since the Dems have controlled
the Congress for the past 40 years or so until recently, I guess I
missed nirvana past?
=========================================================================
From: "Warren Tremain" <warren@icanect.net>
Subject: Re: I am very sad
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 15:07:06 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n440
I actually don't know how to respond to the original post, while I find
$18.00 a lot to pay for a cd I haven't actually paid that much for a new
release yet at my usual sources Best Buy, Borders, everythingcd and Music
boulevard I am still paying 12 to 14 dollars for a new release and around 10
to 20 dollars for back catalog.
But in the end it is 1998 and prices do tend to go up and not down over the
years. And while I don't have any sympathy for the record industry
(especially after the home taping is killing the music industry bullshit
.... Its amazing that Virgin had the gall to label their records with the
skull and crossbones and still do interviews with Branson displaying how
much money he made off Culture Club etal.) I don't think using the basic
manufacturing cost of a cd is relevant to the actual sale price of a cd.
There are other costs to consider such as production costs that range over
$100,000 for a major label release, marketing, storage of back catalog and
finally the cost of cd's that don't sell. The last part may be a larger
factor than you think if RCA produces a Classical or pop release that sells
only a few hundred or thousand copies the loss created msut be made up
somewhere on the bottom line. And so in effect we are paying a premium for
record companies to take risks, advance royalties and eat losses so that we
can have the wide range of material available to choose from. Make no
mistake I know record companies make a lot of money as do some artists, and
most retailers. But without a profit incentive why would anyone do it.
Which gets me to the other point raised which is taking copyrighted material
off the internet for free. Not only is it stealing but its detrimental to
the long term health of music. If artists don't get some form of payment for
there creations why or how would they market the material in the first
place. Long gone are the days where princes and kings paid for musicians to
create and if the republicans in this country have their way no longer will
the government provide any support for the arts at all.
For a much better explanation of the copyright issue I suguest you read the
article in septembers atlantic
called : Who will own your next good idea. its available on line at
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/98sep/copy/htm
Pay particular attention to the history of the last time someone eliminated
copyright controls. (in post revolution France)
warren
=========================================================================
From: "Jon Lane" <jhlane@email.msn.com>
Subject: RE: I am very sad
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 17:24:17 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n440
> > create and if the republicans in this country
> > have their way no longer will
> > the government provide any support for the arts at all
Aren't gov't, support, and arts mutually exclusive...?
=========================================================================
From: "Jon Lane" <jhlane@email.msn.com>
Subject: RE: I am very sad
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 17:25:32 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n440
> Well we couldn't have nirvana because all the
> time and money was spent
> fighting the secret Republican plan to destroy
> social security.
With black helicopters...?
=========================================================================
From: Ron Bales <rbales@gte.net>
Subject: Re: I am very sad
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 20:01:47 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n440
Mike Thompson wrote:
>
>
> Here we go again. The Republicans are killing babies and starving the
> old folks too (or is it the opposite?) Since the Dems have controlled
> the Congress for the past 40 years or so until recently, I guess I
> missed nirvana past?
Well we couldn't have nirvana because all the time and money was spent
fighting the secret Republican plan to destroy social security.
ROn
=========================================================================
From: Richard C Nevill <rnevill@is.dal.ca>
Subject: Re: I am very sad
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 21:15:08 -0300 (ADT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n440
On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, David MOYLAN wrote:
> Not to make things worse, but I know several people
> who run independant record labels which still
> press vinyl as well as CDs. According to them, it
> is cheaper to press a CD then a 7" record (less than
> $1). Wonder where that $18 bucks is going...dave moylan
>
If you look in the back of most musician magizines the have deals like;
we'll make 1000 cd's for you for $499.95, jewel box included. So if it
costs that much for them there is no excuse for charging $20.00US (or
$24.99Can in my case)
>
>
> In a message dated 10/2/98 11:56:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> groverg@postoffice.att.net writes:
> >
> > << I went to Tower Records last night with the usual degree of anticipation,
> > but I see now that they are charging $18 for new releases, including things
> > that used to be "mid-priced". I realized that I can no longer afford to
> > buy music. I got into a heated argument with a salesperson, like an idiot
> > I complained at the front checkout desk (like they care), then I came home
> > and looked at this beautiful stereo thing I have been building and I
> > wondered, "Why? Why am I making this? So I can support greedy business
> > people?" >>
> >
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Robert Jorgensen <robert.jorgensen@advalvas.be>
Subject: Re: I am very sad
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 22:19:19 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n440
At 23:19 02/10/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Thanks for the comforting words, everyone. Plus a couple of good guffaws
>on some other topics. I will check out the online stores and music clubs.
>Got to keep music flowing around here, but it's gotta get cheaper!
>
>Grover Gardner
>groverg@postoffice.att.net
>
>
>
Hi Guys,
You want to have a look at jims cd shop on the net. This guy Jim
Spitznagel has a super place http://www.jims.com. Lots of good stuff and
8$ bin very often has exeedingly good offers. Sometimes you really have to
be quick though since they often go fast.
Tell him I sent you and perhaps he'll give me some freebies :)
Mind you his service is excellent. I once got a scratched one and he sent
a new one to Belgium without any bother at all.
I say support Jims.
Greetings from Brussels
Robert
=========================================================================
From: Peter Drake <peterd@ndsuk.com>
Subject: Re: I am very sad
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 09:18:23 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n441
Jon Lane wrote:
Full price CDs in the UK are #16.49 - that's $25+ !!
Owch !
- --
Pete Drake
peterd@ndsuk.com
http://www.ndsworld.com
=========================================================================
From: "Warren Tremain" <warren@icanect.net>
Subject: Re: I am very sad
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 13:18:09 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n441
- -----Original Message-----
From: Mike Thompson <miketom@cari.net>
To: Warren Tremain <warren@icanect.net>
Cc: sound@deliverator.io.com <sound@deliverator.io.com>
Date: Saturday, October 03, 1998 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: I am very sad
>Warren Tremain wrote:
>> BIG SNIP>
>> create and if the republicans in this country have their way no longer
will
>> the government provide any support for the arts at all
>> Pay particular attention to the history of the last time someone
eliminated
>> copyright controls. (in post revolution France)
>>
>> warren
>
>Here we go again. The Republicans are killing babies and starving the
>old folks too (or is it the opposite?) Since the Dems have controlled
>the Congress for the past 40 years or so until recently, I guess I
>missed nirvana past?
>
Unless I'm greatly mistaken the attacks on PBS and the NEA came from the
republican party and not from
the democratic party hence my remarks about republicans trying to remove
what little arts funding this country has. neither party has been good for
arts funding over the last 50 years our school spending on the arts is
pathetic compared to other countries.
=========================================================================
From: "Warren Tremain" <warren@icanect.net>
Subject: Re: I am very sad
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 13:29:04 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n441
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jon Lane <jhlane@email.msn.com>
To: JoeList <sound@io.com>
Date: Saturday, October 03, 1998 9:48 PM
Subject: RE: I am very sad
>
>> > create and if the republicans in this country
>> > have their way no longer will
>> > the government provide any support for the arts at all
>
>Aren't gov't, support, and arts mutually exclusive...?
>
>
First of all my remarks were mainly about copyright not art funding having
said that this country is a democracy and not a monarchy and hence there are
no princes or kings to fund the arts out of the public purse. Historically
artists like Mozart and Bach were given stipends by the government through
their monarchal representitives. in a democracy the government, as we know
it, would provide the same type of funding through programs like the
national endowment for the arts and provide access through a network of
television and radio stations through partial funding of PBS.
my point which was taken out of context by the poster was that in a world
where the Republicans are vowing to destroy the NEA and remove funding from
PBS that it is even more important than ever for artists to receive royalty
payments and have strong copyright protection. Without said protection then
the ability for artists to create will be greatly reduced and the world of
art music and film will suffer.
=========================================================================
From: "Cameron Brook" <cambrook@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: I am very sad
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:25:43 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n441
Full price CDs in Australia are $31
Owch ! Owch !
=========================================================================
From: "Cameron Brook" <cambrook@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: I am very sad
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:29:31 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n441
Full price CDs in Australia are $31, or to be more precise, they were when
the A$ was worth about US$ 0.70.
Now the A$ is about US$ 0.58, who knows where they'll end up?
=========================================================================
From: dslagle@earthlink.net (dave slagle)
Subject: I choked santa claus for 5 cents
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:07:33 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n541
hey all,
what follows are a few non-technical very un-scientiffic generally on topic
random thoughts...
about a month ago I got my 5hy 20 ohm chokes from jack at electra-print,
and have been listening to them on and off for some time now, and have a
few thoughts to offer/ looking for any similar experiences....
my PS filter immediately changed to a choke input 5hy, 30mic defib, 5hy,
60mic defib cap. and stayed like this for about two weeks and I liked the
sound, and was convinced that the low DCR thing improved my system yet
again...
to be fair I toyed with shorting out the first choke and going CLC and came
to the conclusion that in this particular case the choke in was
preferred... (a good thing since those thyratrons hate cap in...
so back to the LCLC filter... on a whim I put in the nature sound nickel
chokes, (15hy 170 ohm) to see what the end result of this change would
be...
well I am torn... and still amazed at what a huge difference a small change
in the PS topology can make.
the 5hy choke, has the lower frequencies nailed there is a punch to it
everything snaps into place while the nickel chokes tend to soften that
area a bit.
moving onto vocals, the nickel wins hands down... a lot of the edge is gone
everything seems much more musical and connected...
as a generalization, the more complex the recording the more the 5hy chokes
cleared things up, revealing a bit of edge (possibly a solen or two
showing up), but on the simpler music the nickel made everything oh so
musical at the cost of some low end firmness.
I am trying to figure out what to look at next in order to get the best of
both worlds...
I am reasonably sure that much of the edge heard with the 5hy chokes is
from the solens in the driver stage PS so that will be my next line of
attack, but I am still taunted by what is happening with that nickel.
every time I have lowered the dcr in any part of a PS I have preferred the
sound, except for the case of the nickel cored chokes. If I swap a 10 hy
150 ohm milspec choke in for the nickel ones the sound is brutal...
here is a stretch but it seems that somehow the plusses of the core
material in the chokes seems to offset the highish dcr?
I know of many problems associated with the use of nickel in dc
applications, and have been lectured on it many many times, hell maybe I
like distortion, but the nickel sure seems to make music.
the next logical wacky step is to try to source some lowish DCR nickel
chokes, but where can I get the lams in a smallish quantitiy?? I guess the
higer permeability of the nickel will allow more Hy's per turn so the
monster lams of the 5hy 20 ohm chokes won't be needed, and we are only
talking 80ma or so, with little ac ripple since it is a second choke....
santa are ya listening???
=========================================================================
From: Paul Joppa <pdj@ISDNseattle.net>
Subject: Re: I choked santa claus for 5 cents
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:15:03 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n542
dave slagle wrote:
>
> ...major snippage...
> the next logical wacky step is to try to source some lowish DCR nickel
> chokes, but where can I get the lams in a smallish quantitiy?? I guess the
> higer permeability of the nickel will allow more Hy's per turn so the
> monster lams of the 5hy 20 ohm chokes won't be needed, and we are only
> talking 80ma or so, with little ac ripple since it is a second choke....
The inductance, and the flux per turn, are dominated by the air gap in
most DC-carrying chokes or transformers. So using the same size core
and the same windings, the nickel core choke will have the same
inductance if it has the same air gap. (Actually, a slightly larger
gap is needed to compensate for the increased permeability.) But
nickel has around half the maximum flux capability before saturation,
so it will be able to handle half the current of the iron core, at the
same inductance. To get the same current capability, you have to
increase the gap until the inductance is reduced to half. To get both,
with the same DCR, you need a bigger nickel core than the iron one.
Experience (i.e. getting called on my mistakes!) has taught me to be
cautious about my magnetic ideas until an expert confirms them, but I
*think* there is still an advantage in nickel cores, at least where
they are in the signal path. I've not been able to confirm this yet,
but I believe that the smaller hysteresis loop of nickel means less
core-induced distortion when the inductance is the same, as long as
saturation is also avoided by the same margin. Is this relevant in
power supplies? Possibly. It seems unlikely, but then lots of tweaks
sound unlikely - and I hear them anyway.
- -Paul Joppa
=========================================================================
From: dslagle@earthlink.net (dave slagle)
Subject: Re: I choked santa claus for 5 cents
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:56:59 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n542
paul, others...
maybe i have some conflicting info here... my very almost non-existant
limited experiences with magnetics has come for various sources so mebbe i
misspoke.
>(Actually, a slightly larger gap is needed to compensate for the increased
>>permeability.)
so if the gap is made smaller the inductance will go up...
>But
>nickel has around half the maximum flux capability before saturation,
>so it will be able to handle half the current of the iron core
which is fine, what I am looking for is to trade some henry's and current
capability for a lower dcr... sinc this will be the last choke it will see
very little AC and since it will be for one output tube, the current will
be from 40-80 ma.
> To get the same current capability, you have to
>increase the gap until the inductance is reduced to half. To get both,
>with the same DCR, you need a bigger nickel core than the iron one.
I think i see my problem, isn't the wire guage the main factor in the DCR
of a choke? there is no free lunch here... but if you go to the large
guage wire, that does't mean you need to gap the choke to carry the full
load the wire is capable of does it?
I agree with you that a choke with identical specs may need a larger core
if made from nickel, but if you reduce the current spec, couldn't some
games be played??
I am still confused by the paciffic transformer chokes... they have two
models both with 26 ohms dcr and 9hy's but one is speced with 125ma and the
other 200ma
isn't the DCR set by the guage and length of wire? and that 26 ohms is
pretty low... every other choke with those kind of numbers is much lower in
inductance and higher in current... so how did they do it?? did they just
wind two chokes with two different guages of wire, and then ste the gap to
get the 9hy mark?? and if you increased the gap, would you get the more
common 4hy at 300ma choke??
>I *think* there is still an advantage in nickel cores, at least where
>they are in the signal path. I've not been able to confirm this yet,
>but I believe that the smaller hysteresis loop of nickel means less
>core-induced distortion when the inductance is the same, as long as
>saturation is also avoided by the same margin.
there sure seems to be something going on with the nickel... it has brought
consistant results in the sound every time I have tried it, and I like
those results... much like I don't like my results with hexfreds...in any
event once i find a consistancy (which by the way i am becoming a big fan
of) that seems to hold true... that is a solen always sounds like a
solen... now sometimes adding that sound into the mix is a good thing, and
sometimes it is a bad thing, but the solen still sounds like a solen... it
doesn't know any better.
>Is this relevant in
>power supplies?
I hope so...
dave
=========================================================================
From: Ed Johnson <rb1304@alltel.net>
Subject: idea of origin of Muirhead transformers?
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 22:12:09 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n526
Happened to aquire several transformers made by Muirhead,anyone know any
info on these.These look like real quality units.Never seen anything
with the same construction methods.
=========================================================================
From: Ed Johnson <rb1304@alltel.net>
Subject: idea of origin of Muirhead transformers?
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 19:41:18 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n549
>X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to
owner-sound@lists.io.com using -f
>X-Sender: rb1304@alltel.net
>Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 22:12:09 -0500
>To: sound@deliverator.io.com
>From: Ed Johnson <rb1304@alltel.net>
>Subject: idea of origin of Muirhead transformers?
>Sender: owner-sound@lists.io.com
>
>Happened to aquire several transformers made by Muirhead,anyone know any
>info on these.These look like real quality units.Never seen anything
>with the same construction methods.
>
>
=========================================================================
From: An-shyang Chu <achu@sandia.gov>
Subject: Ideas about 5687 Linestage Options
Date: 03 Jun 1998 13:48:09 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n302
Brilliant Ideas
=========================================================================
From: "Doc B." <bottlehead@silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: Ideas from the past (off topic)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:09:35 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n319
>
>"Man will never reach the moon regardless of all future scientific
>advances."
> Dr. Lee De Forest, inventor of the vacuum tube and father of
>television.
Interesting quotes. This one really popped out, because of deForest's self
imposed title.
Do you bottleheads know that when confronted by E.H. "Major" Armstrong in
court, in a case which boiled down to which of them really invented the
amplifying vacuum tube (de Forest's first "audions" were diodes), de Forest
could not explain why the Audion worked? Armstrong had him for lunch.
De Forest went on to call himself the father of television, kind of like
Van-Ghu could be called the father of the space shuttle...
(Van-Ghu (aka Wan-Hu) was the legendary 16th century Chinese official who
attached a kite and 48 rockets to his chair. The resulting explosion might
have better qualified him to be called the father of match light barbeque)
Doc B.
=========================================================================
From: Tom Suit <tsuit@UU.NET>
Subject: Re: Ideas from the past (off topic)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 13:06:45 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n319
At 09:09 AM 6/24/98 -0700, Doc B. wrote:
>
>>
>>"Man will never reach the moon regardless of all future scientific
>>advances."
>> Dr. Lee De Forest, inventor of the vacuum tube and father of
>>television.
>
>
>Interesting quotes. This one really popped out, because of deForest's self
>imposed title.
>Do you bottleheads know that when confronted by E.H. "Major" Armstrong in
>court, in a case which boiled down to which of them really invented the
>amplifying vacuum tube (de Forest's first "audions" were diodes), de Forest
>could not explain why the Audion worked? Armstrong had him for lunch.
>De Forest went on to call himself the father of television, kind of like
>Van-Ghu could be called the father of the space shuttle...
>(Van-Ghu (aka Wan-Hu) was the legendary 16th century Chinese official who
>attached a kite and 48 rockets to his chair. The resulting explosion might
>have better qualified him to be called the father of match light barbeque)
Wasn't Farnsworth the inventor of the TV? Farnsworth also had another device
that just might be the ultimate in vaccuum state technology. See this
website:
www.mathematik.uni-marburg.de/~kronjaeg/hv/fusor/index.html
- -Tom...still enjoying the SEX amps.
=========================================================================
From: pitaro@ozemail.com.au
Subject: Ideas from the past (off topic)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:07:31 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n319
Hi all,
I just thought that some of you might find these quotations amusing.
Imagine how much further audio could have come if it wasn't for
Williamson. :)
- ----------
"Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons."
"Popular Mechanics," forecasting the relentless march of science,
1949
"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943
"I have traveled the length and breadth of this country and talked with the
best people, and I can assure you that data processing is a fad that won't
last out the year."
The editor in charge of business books for Prentice Hall, 1957
"But what is it good for?"
Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968,
commenting on the microchip.
"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment
Corp., 1977
"This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a
means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us."
Western Union internal memo, 1876.
"The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay
for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
David Sarnoff's associates in response to his urgings for
investment in the radio in the 1920s.
"The concept is interesting and well-formed, but in order to earn better
than a 'C,' the idea must be feasible."
A Yale University management professor in response to Fred Smith's
paper proposing reliable overnight delivery service. Smith went on to found
Federal Express Corp.
"I'm just glad it'll be Clark Gable who's falling on his face and not Gary
Cooper."
Gary Cooper on his decision not to take the leading role in "Gone
With The Wind."
"A cookie store is a bad idea. Besides, the market research reports say
America likes crispy cookies, not soft and chewy cookies like you make."
Response to Debbi Fields' idea of starting Mrs. Fields' Cookies.
"We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out."
Decca Recording Co. rejecting the Beatles, 1962.
"Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible."
Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895.
"If I had thought about it, I wouldn't have done the experiment. The
literature was full of examples that said you can't do this."
Spencer Silver on the work that led to the unique adhesives for
3-M "Post-It" Notepads.
"So we went to Atari and said, 'Hey, we've got this amazing thing, even
built with some of your parts, and what do you think about funding us? Or
we'll give it to you. We just want to do it. Pay our salary, we'll come work
for you.' And they said, 'No.' So then we went to Hewlett-Packard, and they
said, 'Hey, we don't need you. You haven't got through college yet.'"
Apple Computer Inc. founder Steve Jobs on attempts to get Atari
and H-P interested in his and Steve Wozniak's personal computer.
"You want to have consistent and uniform muscle development across all of
your muscles? It can't be done. It's just a fact of life. You just have to
accept inconsistent muscle development as an unalterable condition of weight
training."
Response to Arthur Jones, who solved the "unsolvable" problem by
inventing Nautilus.
"Drill for oil? You mean drill into the ground to try and find oil? You're
crazy."
Drillers who Edwin L. Drake tried to enlist to his project to
drill for oil in 1859.
"The bomb will never go off. I speak as an expert in explosives."
Admiral William Leahy, US Atomic Bomb Project.
"This fellow Charles Lindbergh will never make it. He's doomed."
Harry Guggenheim, millionaire aviation enthusiast.
"Stocks have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau."
Irving Fisher, Professor of Economics, Yale University, 1929.
"Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value."
Marshal Ferdinand Foch, Professor of Strategy, Ecole Superieure de
Guerre.
"Man will never reach the moon regardless of all future scientific
advances."
Dr. Lee De Forest, inventor of the vacuum tube and father of
television.
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."
Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899.
Regards,
Harry Pitaro
+-----------------------+---------------------------------------------+
| Melbourne, Australia | A good discussion is like a miniskirt; |
| | Short enough to retain interest |
| pitaro@ozemail.com.au | and long enough to cover the subject. |
+-----------------------+---------------------------------------------+
=========================================================================
From: "David Ball" <dball@esper.com>
Subject: Re: Ideas from the past (off topic)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:41:47 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n319
Doc B. wrote:
>>"Man will never reach the moon regardless of all future scientific
>>advances."
>> Dr. Lee De Forest, inventor of the vacuum tube and father of
>>television.
>
>
>Interesting quotes. This one really popped out, because of deForest's self
>imposed title.
>Do you bottleheads know that when confronted by E.H. "Major" Armstrong in
>court, in a case which boiled down to which of them really invented the
>amplifying vacuum tube (de Forest's first "audions" were diodes), de Forest
>could not explain why the Audion worked
<snip>
If any of you haven't already read it, "Empires of the Air" is an
interesting account of the early days of the vacuum tube, broadcasting,
television, and the many court battles which resulted. It documents the
entire deForest/Armstrong affair in what I think is at least a marginally
unbiased fashion. There was a video documentary version, too. Recommended
reading.
Dave Ball
=========================================================================
From: "Bottlehead" <Bottlehead@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv - LONG RAVE
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:44:06 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n208
> >Bart wrote:
> >
> >> I have heard many MC transformers at the top of the range from the
likes of
> >> Denon, Ortofon and Audio Technica who have all tried many models. They
were
> >> all sadly flawed
> >
> >Yeah, nothing beats feeding the tiny signal directly to the grid of the
> >tube.
> >
> >
>
> I humbly disagree, but if your experience is only with the
above-mentioned
> devices, then I understand why you feel this way.
>
> JL
>
I'm going to side with John on this one. I have a Denon, and it is
mediocre. But I have borrowed Tucker's Koetsu, which is very nice, and I
really liked Sun Audio's step-up, which Uchida san loaned to me at VSAC
last year.
I guess Norm Luttbeg didn't like what he heard, but I thought it was pretty
good.
Speaking of Norm,
Hey Norm, heard any good parafeed amps lately?
Doc B.
=========================================================================
From: John Levreault <jlevro@shore.net>
Subject: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv - LONG RAVE
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 10:45:42 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n208
At 10:30 PM 3/5/98 +0800, Yip Hin Fai Johari wrote:
>Bart wrote:
>
>> I have heard many MC transformers at the top of the range from the likes of
>> Denon, Ortofon and Audio Technica who have all tried many models. They were
>> all sadly flawed
>
>Yeah, nothing beats feeding the tiny signal directly to the grid of the
>tube.
>
>
I humbly disagree, but if your experience is only with the above-mentioned
devices, then I understand why you feel this way.
JL
=========================================================================
From: AirGapped <AirGapped@aol.com>
Subject: Re: RE: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv - LONG RAVE
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:24:13 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n208
In a message dated 3/5/98 6:23:14 AM, Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h wrote:
>
>Excellent idea, I support that proposal.
>Actually, I know a famous audiophile here in France who use an old Peerless
>MCstepup transformer with greatest satisfaction.
>Why not a silver wired version?
>
hey Joe's...thanks for the great responses and even better ideas....
but....I thought you guys were my friends <g>....MC step-ups, heh? Gordo been
on me for well over a year.....
Actually have some proto coils already wound....it is the expensive multiple
mu metal shields that has been mostly holding me up....
Mr. Le Cleac'h can you get the Peerless part number from your friend who is
using MC step up transformer so I can look it up in the archives?
Will get back to Joes later...
again, thanks much for the ideas.
Mike
=========================================================================
From: Bart <bartonw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: RE: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv - LONG RAVE
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:22:00 +1100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n208
I support this idea also. It's fun.
However I don't know if it is possible to design a first rate model on a
first attempt. Perhaps the FS030 ground is more solid.
I have heard many MC transformers at the top of the range from the likes of
Denon, Ortofon and Audio Technica who have all tried many models. They were
all sadly flawed ( I have not heard all, of course, but some of the most
expensive) compared to the best active devices available (contrary to some
popular opinion).
They are very good BUT there seems to be always some (very slight but
perceivable) "grain" created on the top end and some degree (again very
slight) of closed in feeling / lack of "air". I have no idea why - perhaps
something to do with residual magnetism and the VERY low voltages and
currents involved.
Solving the noise problem with trannies does not provide the anticipated
free lunch. Not for Ultra-Fi anyway.
In my book, a properly implemented (unfashionably small and much maligned
here and unfashionably paralleled) 6DJ8 low voltage plate follower with
constant current load (choke?- haven't tried, R only loses dynamics,
haven't tried FET/J8 cascode either) and battery power or suitably clinical
supplies will blow any of them out of the water. (I am not touting J8's
however very few tubes are quiet enough to give a wide choice but other
frame grids may be even better). Even with the need for a nasty coupling
cap (only highest quality foil, of course).
Trannies seem to take the lead where high drive current is an issue i.e.
not here.
I must admit I have never tried a trannie into a fully balanced
differential front-end but I doubt it would ameliorate the effects noticed.
Wild speculation here -Could this transformer effect I hear be a related
analog to either the residual cap charge effect or electron "quanta" effect
discussed in different recent threads???
Anyone else compared tubes to trannies in top of the line MC front ends??
(if interested - information retrieval typically by Koetsu Signature, big
black Sumiko, felt mat Linn)
Sorry for the LONG rave!
Maybe the world is waiting for Mikey to prove I am talking with my head up
my proverbial.
Bart :-)
- ----------
From: Le Cleac'h J.-M.[SMTP:lecleach@cgi.ensmp.fr]
Sent: Thursday, 5 March 1998 19:12
To: sound@deliverator.io.com
Cc: AirGapped@aol.com
Subject: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv product
At 10:24 04/03/1998 PST, Alfred Trower wrote:
>With all of the resurgance of vinyl, here's a radical concept. How
>about MC stepup trannies. Right now, there seems to be only used units
>and foreign sourced new units. If you can deliver on a high quality MC
>stepup, with, say, a nickel core, who knows. There's probably a bigger
>market for something like that than for SE OPT's.
Excellent idea, I support that proposal.
Actually, I know a famous audiophile here in France who use an old Peerless
MCstepup transformer with greatest satisfaction.
Why not a silver wired version?
Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h, Paris, France
=========================================================================
From: Yip Hin Fai Johari <hfyip@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv - LONG RAVE
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 22:30:08 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n208
Bart wrote:
> I have heard many MC transformers at the top of the range from the likes of
> Denon, Ortofon and Audio Technica who have all tried many models. They were
> all sadly flawed
Yeah, nothing beats feeding the tiny signal directly to the grid of the
tube.
Johari
=========================================================================
From: Yip Hin Fai Johari <hfyip@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv - LONG RAVE
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 07:40:29 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n209
At 10:45 AM 3/5/98 -0500, you wrote:
>At 10:30 PM 3/5/98 +0800, Yip Hin Fai Johari wrote:
>>Bart wrote:
>>
>>> I have heard many MC transformers at the top of the range from the
likes of
>>> Denon, Ortofon and Audio Technica who have all tried many models. They
were
>>> all sadly flawed
>>
>>Yeah, nothing beats feeding the tiny signal directly to the grid of the
>>tube.
>>
>>
>
>I humbly disagree, but if your experience is only with the above-mentioned
>devices, then I understand why you feel this way.
>
>JL
>
I have actually listen to a Ortophon MC step up. Didn't really impressed me.
I still feels that a well designed phonostage with about 60 db of gain will
do a better job.
Just my opinion.
Johari
=========================================================================
From: Grover Gardner <groverg@bellatlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv - LONG RAVE
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:04:07 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n209
At 7:40 AM +0800 3/6/98, Yip Hin Fai Johari wrote:
>I have actually listen to a Ortophon MC step up. Didn't really impressed me.
>I still feels that a well designed phonostage with about 60 db of gain will
>do a better job.
>Just my opinion.
I just heard an all-tube MC phono stage the other day, it was fantastic.
It can be done. Best phono stage I've ever heard--proprietary design so I
don't know the tube compliment (just that it uses triode-wired pentodes) or
the RIAA set-up, but I'd love to know if anyone else has built or heard
something similar.
=========================================================================
From: Bart <bartonw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: RE: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv - LONG RAVE
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:27:51 +1100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n209
Hi John,
I have used others. The Mitchell Cotter was one of my favourites.
The best Ortophon was the best they knew how to make and extremely expensive - it was borrowed from
a dealer friend.
But, I am happy to learn there are better out there, please elaborate with make, model and listening
experiences.
I expect Audio Note rebadge one with a $(telephone #) price made from unobtainium.
Cheers,
Bart
- ----------
From: John Levreault[SMTP:jlevro@shore.net]
Sent: Friday, 6 March 1998 02:45
To: hfyip@pacific.net.sg
Cc: sound@deliverator.io.com
Subject: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv - LONG RAVE
At 10:30 PM 3/5/98 +0800, Yip Hin Fai Johari wrote:
>Bart wrote:
>
>> I have heard many MC transformers at the top of the range from the likes of
>> Denon, Ortofon and Audio Technica who have all tried many models. They were
>> all sadly flawed
>
>Yeah, nothing beats feeding the tiny signal directly to the grid of the
>tube.
>
>
I humbly disagree, but if your experience is only with the above-mentioned
devices, then I understand why you feel this way.
JL
=========================================================================
From: Robert Jorgensen <robert.jorgensen@advalvas.be>
Subject: RE: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv - LONG RAVE
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 09:18:08 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n210
At 17:27 06/03/98 +1100, you wrote:
>Hi John,
>
>I have used others. The Mitchell Cotter was one of my favourites.
>The best Ortophon was the best they knew how to make and extremely
expensive - it was borrowed from a dealer friend.
>
>But, I am happy to learn there are better out there, please elaborate with
make, model and listening experiences.
>
>I expect Audio Note rebadge one with a $(telephone #) price made from
unobtainium.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Bart
>
>----------
>From: John Levreault[SMTP:jlevro@shore.net]
>Sent: Friday, 6 March 1998 02:45
>To: hfyip@pacific.net.sg
>Cc: sound@deliverator.io.com
>Subject: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv - LONG RAVE
>
>At 10:30 PM 3/5/98 +0800, Yip Hin Fai Johari wrote:
>>Bart wrote:
>>
>>> I have heard many MC transformers at the top of the range from the
likes of
>>> Denon, Ortofon and Audio Technica who have all tried many models. They
were
>>> all sadly flawed
>>
>>Yeah, nothing beats feeding the tiny signal directly to the grid of the
>>tube.
>>
>>
>
>I humbly disagree, but if your experience is only with the above-mentioned
>devices, then I understand why you feel this way.
>
>JL
>
>
>
Whatever you want to say about AN, I heard (and it is a good many years
ago) one and it was VERY good. Another one I liked very much and which I
to my loss sold was Tim de P's 'The HEAD' which shared a perhaps a little
dark sound with other of his products, but which had enormous authority. I
don't know if Tim still makes it but I'd like to give a go again.
Greetings
Robert
=========================================================================
From: John Levreault <jlevro@shore.net>
Subject: Re: RE: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv - LONG RAVE
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 09:38:18 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n211
At 09:57 AM 3/9/98 +0100, Le Cleac'h J.-M. wrote:
>
>Another great transformer used by various audiophiles for their MC
>cartridges is the UTC A11. Originally, this one was mainly used as a step
>down transformer but you can also find it as input transformer in MacIntosh
>amplifiers used in movie theaters.
>
>
I've also used the HA100X with good results.
JL
=========================================================================
From: "Le Cleac'h J.-M." <lecleach@cgi.ensmp.fr>
Subject: Re: RE: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv - LONG RAVE
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:57:05 +0100 (MET)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n211
At 11:24 05/03/1998 EST, Mike wrote:
>Mr. Le Cleac'h can you get the Peerless part number from your friend who is
>using MC step up transformer so I can look it up in the archives?
Hello Mike,
On sunday, I spoke to one of the audiophiles I know, who is using a Peerless
transformer as a step up transformer for their MC cartridge.
The guy told me that the part number of that transformer is:
Peerless N°4629
It was used in movie projectors, in the optical-sound device, to perform the
impedance adaptation between the optical cell and the amplifier. The guy
uses it with a DENON 103 cartridge. He said that the sound of the Perless
4629 was very dynamic and accurate but also, to avoid some nasty harshness
in the highs, a great attention should be paid to the load of the secondary.
Another great transformer used by various audiophiles for their MC
cartridges is the UTC A11. Originally, this one was mainly used as a step
down transformer but you can also find it as input transformer in MacIntosh
amplifiers used in movie theaters.
Best regards,
Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h, Paris, France
=========================================================================
From: AirGapped <AirGapped@aol.com>
Subject: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv product
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 01:58:39 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n206
Hey Joes (any Joe-ettes?):
Next year (1999) will mark our tenth year of building audio transformers. To
remind myself how long I have been doing this I thought about doing a special
project....
I wanted to get some ideas from other folks about what they think would be
neat to do....
I want the project to have stunning good looks....so I have been thinking that
maybe we should pot the units in either a solid brass transformer can or one
made of copper....with a gleaming bright shiny polished surface.
the other option would be to get solid brass bell ends and get them shined
like we do for the nickel para feed 204's that we build for Schmalle.
I want to do the graphics (MQ in a circle) maybe as an embossed surface and
get some delicate decals made with 10th anniv on them or something.
Any ideas you folks might have would really be appreciated.
Next question...should we do a special run of the FS 030 trans....maybe with
some "touched-by-god" specialty magnet wire? The other trans I thought about
doing would be a Peerless PP output say for 211's-845's....
Excuse my thinking out loud.....but this is really MQ's 10th
birthday....Peerless was actually founded in 1934. And the 030 (one might
argue) is the trans that "put us on the map"....
Again any ideas on what would be cool to do....would be most
appreciated....email me privately if your more comfortable...whatever.....
thanks for the bandwidth....
Mike
=========================================================================
From: "Bottlehead" <Bottlehead@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv product
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 06:44:09 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n207
>
> Next year (1999) will mark our tenth year of building audio transformers.
To
> remind myself how long I have been doing this I thought about doing a
special
> project....
>
> I wanted to get some ideas from other folks about what they think would
be
> neat to do....
>
I want pictures of the MQ/Tonalities race cars on 'em.
Doc B.
=========================================================================
From: "Bottlehead" <Bottlehead@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv product
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:04:17 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n207
>
> >> Next year (1999) will mark our tenth year . . .
> >> I wanted to get some ideas from other folks about . . .
> >I want pictures of the MQ/Tonalities race cars on 'em.
> >Doc B.
>
> How about pictures of the good Doc's 'race car' (the one he was telling
us
> about last week with 204,000 miles on it (that was his car, wan't it?)).
FS-030, the four cylinder Dodge of the high end output transformer world.
Jute would love it.
Just kiddin' man. You make pretty good stuff for a ten year old kid.
B.
=========================================================================
From: "alfred trower" <sedht@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv product
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 10:24:15 PST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n207
Hi Mike and gang,
With all of the resurgance of vinyl, here's a radical concept. How
about MC stepup trannies. Right now, there seems to be only used units
and foreign sourced new units. If you can deliver on a high quality MC
stepup, with, say, a nickel core, who knows. There's probably a bigger
market for something like that than for SE OPT's.
Just a though...
Al
Alfred Trower
Consultant, Client/Server Systems
Supply Chain Specialist
- ----------------------------------
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to
those who cannot fly." Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
From: SSell71096@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv product
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:16:55 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n207
>> Next year (1999) will mark our tenth year . . .
>> I wanted to get some ideas from other folks about . . .
>I want pictures of the MQ/Tonalities race cars on 'em.
>Doc B.
How about pictures of the good Doc's 'race car' (the one he was telling us
about last week with 204,000 miles on it (that was his car, wan't it?)).
=========================================================================
From: Kurt Gabitzsch <gabitzkw@webwide.net>
Subject: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv product
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 12:34:11 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n207
AirGapped wrote:
> Any ideas you folks might have would really be appreciated.
I thinking of a large module (Magnaquest Magnetic Module) containing all needed
magnetics for a monoblock tube amp carefully engineered inside - ie, the
power/filament transformer, choke(s), and output transformer. You could do a
copper version and maybe a special "silver" version for those with big $$$. Maybe
use the magnetics design for Gordons "Baby O" amp or include the stuff for a
really good generic 300B or 2A3 amp design. Then house it all in a stunning
package - the builder has to just add tubes, resistors, and caps to taste.
Congratulations to you on your 10 year anniversary!
Kurt (happy user of Magnaquest magnetics)
=========================================================================
From: Daniel Normolle <monk@umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv product
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 13:40:00 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n207
AirGapped wrote:
> Hey Joes (any Joe-ettes?):
>
> Next year (1999) will mark our tenth year of building audio transformers. To
> remind myself how long I have been doing this I thought about doing a special
> project....
>
> Next question...should we do a special run of the FS 030 trans....maybe with
> some "touched-by-god" specialty magnet wire? The other trans I thought about
> doing would be a Peerless PP output say for 211's-845's....
Do a matched set for a PP 845: the OPT, a driver , and an inputtranny to split
the phase. dpn
=========================================================================
From: STEVE CORNETT <SCORNETT@usagroup.com>
Subject: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv product
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 14:27:08 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n207
Alfred posted:
"...How about MC stepup trannies..."
Hey, great idea. Perhaps a copper and a silver version. Compete with
Audio Note. Perhaps sell them as a package with the phono stage? Way
to go, Al.
Steve C.
"The earth is just to too small and
fragile a basket for the human race
to keep all its eggs in." - Heinlein
=========================================================================
From: SSell71096@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv product
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:41:56 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n207
Alfred Trower wrote:
>How about MC stepup trannies.
Dr. Sao Win is making one to go with his new MC cartridge. Given his
knowledge, and unfettered and unique thoughts on audio design, it should
proven to be an interesting piece, though not cheap.
=========================================================================
From: Emile Sprenger <emile.sprenger@cmg.nl>
Subject: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv product
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 21:01:53 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n207
Hi Mike,
>I wanted to get some ideas from other folks about what they think would be
>neat to do....
My $0.02 (and Santa's list):
1. MC silver stepup transformer
2. 5K 100mA silver SE OPT
>I want the project to have stunning good looks....so I have been thinking
that
>maybe we should pot the units in either a solid brass transformer can or
one
>made of copper....with a gleaming bright shiny polished surface.
How about some carbon-fiber casing for that techno90's look?
Then add some brushed aluminium for that retro bauhaus look?
Go wild!
>Next question...should we do a special run of the FS 030 trans....maybe with
>some "touched-by-god" specialty magnet wire? The other trans I thought about
>doing would be a Peerless PP output say for 211's-845's....
Go for the 211/845 PP output.
How high can you get the impedance?
For the 845 I'd like >15K PtP.
>Excuse my thinking out loud.....but this is really MQ's 10th
>birthday....Peerless was actually founded in 1934. And the 030 (one might
>argue) is the trans that "put us on the map"....
Happy birthday Mike!
Emile
=========================================================================
From: Paul Joppa <pdj@ISDNseattle.net>
Subject: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv product
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 22:15:50 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n208
Emile Sprenger wrote:
>
> My $0.02 (and Santa's list):
>
> 1. MC silver stepup transformer
MC stepup can be quite a development effort. I know Sowter spent
a good deal of time tweaking their Ortofon unit (which I have not
yet heard - any comments?) before they were satisfied.
> 2. 5K 100mA silver SE OPT
Haven't seen any 845 SE requests, but there would be a market
I think. 5k would do. How about 5k at 140mA for the SV572's?
More cool I think would be an 845 nickle parafeed. Units exist
for 45, 2A3, 300B-VV52, but nothing bigger. Maybe the standard
MQ 5k unit with interleaved nickle cores? If there's enough
inductance that way it might work at 10kohm for 211 even,
running 8 ohm speakers on the 4 ohm tap...
>
> How about some carbon-fiber casing for that techno90's look?
COOL!! No magnetic shunting possible, either!
>
> Then add some brushed aluminium for that retro bauhaus look?
Personally, I like the green corroded copper Arts&Crafts look -
maybe an amp with some Greene&Greene woodwork, hammered copper
chassis ...
>
> Happy birthday Mike!
Yeah - from me too!!
- -Paul Joppa
=========================================================================
From: Michael Kerster <MKers@idirect.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv product
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 22:36:30 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n208
Here, Here!!At 10:24 AM 3/4/98 PST, alfred trower wrote:
>Hi Mike and gang,
>
>With all of the resurgance of vinyl, here's a radical concept. How
>about MC stepup trannies. Right now, there seems to be only used units
>and foreign sourced new units. If you can deliver on a high quality MC
>stepup, with, say, a nickel core, who knows. There's probably a bigger
>market for something like that than for SE OPT's.
>
>Just a though...
>
>Al
>
>Alfred Trower
>Consultant, Client/Server Systems
>Supply Chain Specialist
>----------------------------------
>"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to
>those who cannot fly." Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
=========================================================================
From: "Bottlehead" <Bottlehead@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv product
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:32:34 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n208
>
> MC stepup can be quite a development effort. I know Sowter spent
> a good deal of time tweaking their Ortofon unit (which I have not
> yet heard - any comments?) before they were satisfied.
Rumor has it there is a killer design in the MQ archives.
As usual it would be built to Mike's superconservative standards, and hence
it would require triple mu metal shielding for absolute minimum hum pickup.
Most of you guys may not want to know what these babies would cost!!!
> More cool I think would be an 845 nickle parafeed. Units exist
> for 45, 2A3, 300B-VV52, but nothing bigger. Maybe the standard
> MQ 5k unit with interleaved nickle cores? If there's enough
> inductance that way it might work at 10kohm for 211 even,
> running 8 ohm speakers on the 4 ohm tap...
This has been discussed a lot between Mike and me. Unfortunately, no dice
on Permalloy E-I lams big enough to do the job, unless somebody promises to
buy several thousand units - they would need to be custom ordered from the
lam manufacturer at that size, cut from a custom die, and we're talking
tons.
C-cores are the most sensible approach, again $$$$!. But I think if there
is enough interest this project could materialize, not necessarily as the
10th anniv. product, but as a regularly available item. They won't be
cheap, but some R & D has shown that 845 nickel parafeed may just flat whup
anything else around.
> >
> > How about some carbon-fiber casing for that techno90's look?
There's an Asian fellow who is manufacturing trannies in carbon fiber
cases, out of Vancouver B.C.
From my experience at CES, they look like a million bucks, cost $3K, and
sound like $15.
Maybe he would sell just the cases...
> Personally, I like the green corroded copper Arts&Crafts look -
> maybe an amp with some Greene&Greene woodwork, hammered copper
> chassis ...
Would look perfect with the Lumberjacks, just leave them out at the beach
for a week or two.
Doc B.
=========================================================================
From: "Le Cleac'h J.-M." <lecleach@cgi.ensmp.fr>
Subject: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv product
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:12:56 +0100 (MET)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n208
At 10:24 04/03/1998 PST, Alfred Trower wrote:
>With all of the resurgance of vinyl, here's a radical concept. How
>about MC stepup trannies. Right now, there seems to be only used units
>and foreign sourced new units. If you can deliver on a high quality MC
>stepup, with, say, a nickel core, who knows. There's probably a bigger
>market for something like that than for SE OPT's.
Excellent idea, I support that proposal.
Actually, I know a famous audiophile here in France who use an old Peerless
MCstepup transformer with greatest satisfaction.
Why not a silver wired version?
Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h, Paris, France
=========================================================================
From: Thomas Woodley <twoodley@freespace.net>
Subject: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv product
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:35:26 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n208
On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, AirGapped wrote:
>
> I wanted to get some ideas from other folks about what they think would be
> neat to do....
> I want to do the graphics (MQ in a circle) maybe as an embossed surface and
> get some delicate decals made with 10th anniv on them or something.
> Any ideas you folks might have would really be appreciated.
> Next question...should we do a special run of the FS 030 trans....maybe with
> some "touched-by-god" specialty magnet wire? The other trans I thought about
> doing would be a Peerless PP output say for 211's-845's....
Hey Mike - Since it's a 10th anniversary, I think something retro is in
order. Given that the FS030 put MQ "on the map", it would be the logical
choice (I'm being somewhat self-serving here, since I would still like to
get hold of a pair at some point). I wouldn't change the look by potting
it, since they should be easily distinguished as 030s, and think that
fancy end-bells would be the ticket. What about stamping a 10th
anniversary MQ logo into the end-bells? Here's another thought: you could
offer brass or copper end-bells if it were to employ "touched by God"
copper (say 6/9 stuff) or, if you really want to go overboard, silver
plated end-bells for a silver wire version.
Just some thoughts. Best,
Thom
=========================================================================
From: "dehls" <dehls@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv product
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:45:24 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n209
Hello All,
QuicksilverAudio in Reno, NV still manufactures a MC stepup
transformer that sounds great.
David
- ----------
>alfred trower <sedht@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> With all of the resurgance of vinyl, here's a radical concept. How
> about MC stepup trannies. Right now, there seems to be only used
units
> and foreign sourced new units.
>
=========================================================================
From: Paul Joppa <pdj@ISDNseattle.net>
Subject: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv product
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 07:43:28 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n209
Bottlehead wrote:
> -snip, re: 845 nickle parafeed transformer-
> This has been discussed a lot between Mike and me. Unfortunately, no dice
> on Permalloy E-I lams big enough to do the job, unless somebody promises to
> buy several thousand units - they would need to be custom ordered from the
> lam manufacturer at that size, cut from a custom die, and we're talking
> tons.
Too bad! I suppose one could use a pair of 2004's in series though ...
so
Mike, when will we see some 100-henry, 120mA plate load chokes?!
> C-cores are the most sensible approach, again $$$$!. But I think if there
> is enough interest this project could materialize, not necessarily as the
> 10th anniv. product, but as a regularly available item. They won't be
> cheap, but some R & D has shown that 845 nickel parafeed may just flat whup
> anything else around.
A excellent application for toroids, too. Makes more sense than
push-pull
with its requirement for *perfect* DC balance. Are large toroid cores
available in nickel?!
- -Paul Joppa
=========================================================================
From: Paul Joppa <pdj@ISDNseattle.net>
Subject: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv product
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 12:05:03 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n209
AirGapped wrote:
>
> >Mike, when will we see some 100-henry, 120mA plate load chokes?!
>
> As soon as construction on the loading dock is done and we get our forklift
> fixed <g>.
Oh well - can always use 8 EX003's in series/parallel. Let's see,
eight of them plus two TFA2004's -per channel- plus power supply
iron, plus as long as we're at it, might as well transformer-couple
the driver stage (hey, how about some nice 5k:5k nickle parafeed
interstages?!) - say, 15 pieces of iron and/or nickel per channel
for a two-stage 845 amp. Makes sense to me ... :^)
- -Paul
=========================================================================
From: AirGapped <AirGapped@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv product
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:28:07 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n209
In a message dated 3/6/98 10:52:50 AM, you wrote:
>Mike, when will we see some 100-henry, 120mA plate load chokes?!
As soon as construction on the loading dock is done and we get our forklift
fixed <g>.
Mike
=========================================================================
From: davidbarnett@aristotle.net (David N. Barnett)
Subject: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv product
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 18:41:19 GMT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n209
On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 01:58:39 EST, AirGapped <AirGapped@aol.com> wrote:
>Excuse my thinking out loud.....but this is really MQ's 10th
>birthday....Peerless was actually founded in 1934. And the 030 (one might
>argue) is the trans that "put us on the map"....
I agree that the anniversary product should be based around the 030.
My idea -- do a "cosmetically enhanced" 030, maybe with special wire
and/or insulation if that'll improve the performance. AND -- offer a
matching power supply transformer and choke!!! With maybe a package
deal of some sort.
It would be a shame to have to use a pretty 030 "Anniversary Edition"
w/shiny polished endbells, next to some grungy dumpster-diver-special
power tranny, or worse, a Hammond. Just wouldn't look right. And as
Italian car enthusiasts know, if it looks right, it IS right. <G>
- --dnb
=========================================================================
From: An-shyang Chu <achu@sandia.gov>
Subject: Re[2]: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv product
Date: 06 Mar 1998 14:28:46 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n210
I second this idea!! A real package job... (1) power trannies with two HV taps
(one for the input/driver and another for the output, and/or bias tap) (2)
separated filament trannies with lots of filament taps for experimenting (1.5,
2.5, 5, 6.3 etc.), and allowing to turn on the amps in two steps (3) pair of
chokes for dual LC-LC filtering (4) interstage transformers <g> (5) anniversary
edition 030s. All in the pretty new polished jackets (with sn and signed).
Yummy! I am dreaming here.
hopper
_______________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv product
From: davidbarnett@aristotle.net at hubsmtp
Date: 3/6/98 1:32 PM
On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 01:58:39 EST, AirGapped <AirGapped@aol.com> wrote:
>Excuse my thinking out loud.....but this is really MQ's 10th
>birthday....Peerless was actually founded in 1934. And the 030 (one might
>argue) is the trans that "put us on the map"....
I agree that the anniversary product should be based around the 030.
My idea -- do a "cosmetically enhanced" 030, maybe with special wire
and/or insulation if that'll improve the performance. AND -- offer a
matching power supply transformer and choke!!! With maybe a package
deal of some sort.
It would be a shame to have to use a pretty 030 "Anniversary Edition"
w/shiny polished endbells, next to some grungy dumpster-diver-special
power tranny, or worse, a Hammond. Just wouldn't look right. And as
Italian car enthusiasts know, if it looks right, it IS right. <G>
- --dnb
=========================================================================
From: Paul Joppa <pdj@ISDNseattle.net>
Subject: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv product
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 19:13:10 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n210
Joelisters-
Below is a snip from an offline email conversation; I think
the subject is potentially interesting (unless it's been covered
recently while I was offline). Certainly many of you will have
better-informed answers than I might!
- -Paul Joppa
>> Why not just use a toroid?
>Cause they are hard to wind, and the machines that do it are
>very expensive.
So what - do practical matters have much of a bearing on hard core
audiophiles. Seriously, is a toroid theoretically a better way to go?
Certainly they are not uncommon in high end solid state amps. (even in
the
less expensive ones.)
=========================================================================
From: Paul Joppa <pdj@ISDNseattle.net>
Subject: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv product
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 22:14:39 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n210
AirGapped wrote:
>
> Regarding the costs of winding equipment. Toroidal winders are not more
> expensive than bobbin winders or layer winding machines per se.
So ... where are the grain-oriented and/or nickel permalloy parafeed
output trannies? Is anyone besides Plitron/van der Veen doing toroids?
Is there a reason they aren't?
- -Paul Joppa
=========================================================================
From: AirGapped <AirGapped@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv product
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:33:36 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n210
In a message dated 3/7/98 10:20:23 PM, you wrote:
>Below is a snip from an offline email conversation; I think
>the subject is potentially interesting (unless it's been covered
>recently while I was offline). Certainly many of you will have
>better-informed answers than I might!
Regarding the costs of winding equipment. Toroidal winders are not more
expensive than bobbin winders or layer winding machines per se.
Mike
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: Ideas wanted for 10th Anniv product
Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 14:51:44 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n210
Hi all,
I am still missing a small but decent trannie for EL84 SE. Let us say 5 to
6 k-ohm on the primary, 4 and 8 ohm secondary. Power ? 5 watt will do !
Suitable for 40 mA dc, either triode or penthode
Another one is a small (no dc) input trannie, let's say 1 to 5 or 10, to
add upfront your first tube
One may make a single tube amp, with E55L (very high slope), concept:
input trannie, E55L in SE with the output trannie just described
Have fun, whatever will appear with the anniversary will be fine !
Guido
=========================================================================
From: Steve Van Osdell <svanos@toast.net>
Subject: Identifying Trannie Leads
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:03:13 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n193
Can any of you experts out there give me some tips on how to identify the
leads out of an output transformer? It has five wires coming out and is
only tapped for 8 ohm outputs. I need to identify the primary, center tap,
plate leads, and 2 outputs. I think I am close, but want to make sure
before installing.
Thanks, Steve
=========================================================================
From: Ron Bales <rbales@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Identifying Trannie Leads
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:17:43 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n193
Steve Van Osdell wrote:
>
> Can any of you experts out there give me some tips on how to identify the
> leads out of an output transformer? It has five wires coming out and is
> only tapped for 8 ohm outputs. I need to identify the primary, center
tap,
> plate leads, and 2 outputs. I think I am close, but want to make sure
> before installing.
ooooooOOH!! I get to be an expert for once.
If we only have one secondary, and it is push pull.....
We have one set of three wires - the primary
and
One set of two - the secondary
Use an ohm meter to sort that out. There will be a fairly low
resistance connection between and among the primary leads and a very low
R connection between the secondary leads. There will be no connection
between the primary and secondary leads.
The meter will tell you which one of the primary leads is the
center-tap, it has the same (roughly) resistance reading to the other
two leads. The other two are the plate leads and will be the same
color.
Expect a negative feedback connection on the secondary when you actually
replace the things. I'm not aware of any way to predict which secondary
lead should be connected to the NFB loop. Usually this connection is
made at the speaker terminal. You might consider finding a wire
connected to the terminal that disappears into the front end of the amp
and disconnecting it. Then try connecting it after you fire up the amp
for the first time. If connecting the wire makes the amp get louder and
more distorted, then you will need to reverse the secondary
connections. This is a job for clip leads.
Hey, let's calculate the primary Z while we're at it. Set it up so that
no
leads could touch each other. Connect the two plate leads to a known AC
source like a wall outlet. Remember NO LOAD, no other connections!
Measure the voltage across the secondary.
Take the input voltage divide by the output voltage, square the result
and multiply by eight to get the primary Z. More or less.
Have fun.
ROn
=========================================================================
From: torgd@tolstoy.lerc.nasa.gov (Russell DeAnna)
Subject: Identify transformer: Signal Transformer Co.
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:21:54 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n342
Does anyone know have specifications for these signal transformers?
# 241-7-16
There are a pair of primary taps and a trio of secondary taps. It is
about the size of a ST-70 OPT. Not potted, no end bells.
- -Russell
=========================================================================
From: Kalman Rubinson <kr4@is2.nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: Identify transformer: Signal Transformer Co.
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:12:26 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n343
On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Russell DeAnna wrote:
> Does anyone know have specifications for these signal transformers?
>
> # 241-7-16
115v single primary
16vct @ 3.5A secondary
Kal
=========================================================================
From: Daniel Normolle <monk@umich.edu>
Subject: Identify UTC Iron?
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 16:47:04 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n307
Hi all,
I have some UTC transformers I'd like some help with; they look like power
transformers. Can anybody identify these? The pinouts would be helpful.
They're labeled:
UTC Special Series S-22 (big sucker!)
UTC Special Series S-61
UTC PA 59 AX
Note that the "Special Series" are S-numbers, not LS-numbers. Any help would
be appreciated. dpn
=========================================================================
From: "T. Loesch" <ezee_e@hotmail.com>
Subject: I did something with 300B's this weekend !!!
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:13:34 PST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n547
Hi Dudettes and Dudes,
I have now managed to finish and to listen to my PSE Amp converted from
EL-34's to 300B's.
This has got two pairs of Svetlana 300B's (thanX to Eric Barbour for
these - great Guy) and was converted from the Edison 60 running EL-34's
in Triode connection and PSE....
First, the Svetlanas seem very well made and with good consitency.
Unlike some other russian Valves (eg. Sovtek EL-34's) I have had a
chance to encounter, these seem to be made to exacting standards. All
the inards of the valve are perfectly aligned and straight (don't
laugh)....
I decided to try AC Heaters and with this I got about 2-3mV Hum on the
Output on the 8 Ohm Tap.
This will not be good enough for Lowthers but with my 93db/2.83V
sensitive Speakers I cannot hear the hum even late at night....
The Valves match very closely (despite being unmatched) with very little
difference in Bias Voltage.
There is a little bit microphony with the Svetlanas, but I feel not
unduly so....
I isolate the Amp on Glass-Shelf set on four Deflex "Focul-Pods" and the
Amp itself sits on Goldring "Spikedampers".... This cures any problems
with microphonics....
I use a 1k Cathode Resistor and 500V +B.... Driver is a Parallel 5687 (I
use a Westinghouse branded RCA) run at 180V/7.5mA per section and there
is a ECC88 or 6CG7/6FQ7 input Valve (currently a Mullard 6DJ8).
The PSU is Solid State with some influence from John Camilles
"High-Tech" PSU....
http://www.bottlehead.com/valve/camilleps.shtml
I use fewer Filter-Cells though as I had to make do with a fairly small
chassis.
As for the sound, these Svetlana 300B's are amazing....
Compared to the Triode EL-34's there is a lot more heft and precisition
in the lower registers. Overall Power seems to have (subjectively) at
least doubled....
The Midrange is very 300B like, creamy glowing full of live, as good as
I have heard so far from any 300B based Amp, but I feel the Frequency
extremes are served better that with most 300B Amp's.... I'm not sure if
this is down to the quality of the Audion Output transformer or the
Svetlana Valves (both I suspect)....
Female Vocals (like Billy Holiday or Carol King) are a treat....
Together with a Speaker that images well (I have copied Wilson Audio's
Watt/Puppy) you just wanna get up and ask them for a dance....
Anyway I fired the Amp up on Saturday 11pm and went to bed at 6am after
a lot of listening.... I spend most of Sunday spinning the Vinyl too....
I had a friend around who was MIGHTILY impressed with the "new and
improved" Edison.
Just love the Edison with 300B's.... And I already thought it EXTREMELY
good in it's EL-34 Guise.... I think I will ask Dave Chessel from
Audion/Edison to make a partial Kit available for this (Case,
Transformers and PCB's....) so that anyone can add her or his falvour of
300B's and Input/Driver valves....
Anyway, good tunes to all of you and I'll be back in the new year with
more tales of this Amp. Over the holidays I will be trying various Input
and Driver Valves....
Later Thorsten
Visit TNT-Audio on the Web - the only advertising
free audio web-zine. http://www.tnt-audio.com
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
From: "P.A. & M. Almeflo" <sd@ljusdal.se>
Subject: IEC baffle
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 22:00:30 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n307
Hi,
Does anybody have exact specifications for an IEC baffle.
Is material, thickness or weight specified?
Thanks,
Per Arne Almeflo
=========================================================================
From: "Ken Dangerfield" <bpyakd@mail.island.net>
Subject: IEC sockets
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:56:53 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n016
I am in the process of building the bases for my 2A3 Afterglow amps
and I have reached the point of cutting the holes for AC input. I
have pretty much decided on using IEC sockets which, as all of you
know, come in several flavours including plain vanilla, 20A Hubbell ,
etc, with or without EMI/RFI filter.
What is an EMI/RFI filter, how does it work, and will it make an audible
difference on an amp sufficient to justify the additional $4US cost
each. TIA for advice and suggestions.
Regards,
Ken Dangerfield
=========================================================================
From: Guido Tent <gtent@ehv.sc.philips.com>
Subject: Re: IEC sockets
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:04:07 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n016
At 18:56 8-09-97 -0800, you wrote:
>I am in the process of building the bases for my 2A3 Afterglow amps
>and I have reached the point of cutting the holes for AC input. I
>have pretty much decided on using IEC sockets which, as all of you
>know, come in several flavours including plain vanilla, 20A Hubbell ,
>etc, with or without EMI/RFI filter.
Ken,
>What is an EMI/RFI filter, how does it work, and will it make an audible
>difference on an amp sufficient to justify the additional $4US cost
>each. TIA for advice and suggestions.
EMI = Electro Magnetic Interference
RFI = Radio Frequency Interference
The noise that can or will be filtered is either common mode, or
differential mode
The filters consist of some capacitors, connected in such a way that they
hopefully do what the manufacturer promises. This means that you have to
connect the filter the right way along, and only then, they will work up to
some 5 or 10 MHz
Most filters are uni-directional, e.g. they filter either incoming, or
outgoing noise
The mains filter only filters the mains cable. Other cables may carry noise
too (such as loudspeakers, interconnects comming from your CD player, as the
CD player is a noise source. also the antenna cable of your tuner is a victim)
My experience says that bluntly applying any filter does not work, and that
you need a dedicated approach; Not only applying filters, but also the
layout of your amp.
I am writing and publishing an article about this in a Dutch Audio Magazine,
I hope one day to translate this in order to get it published in for example SP
Ergo: don't use your filter, as it may or may not work for several reasons.
Spend your $ 4 on good tubes or OPTX's (or a proper bottle of wine, that
makes your system definitely sound more smooth)
Have fun
Guido
>Regards,
>Ken Dangerfield
>
>
"to be EMC or not to be EMC, that's the question"
Guido Tent
Engineer
Electro Magnetic Compatibility
Philips Semiconductors Systems Laboratory Eindhoven (PS-SLE)
Building BE303, (Hurksestraat 19)
P.O.Box 218, 5600MD Eindhoven, The Netherlands
Phone: +31-40-27 24553
fax : +31-40-27 22764
E-mail: guido.tent@ehv.sc.philips.com
Seri : gtent@nlsce1
- - Let's make things better ! -
=========================================================================
From: "Ken Dangerfield" <bpyakd@mail.island.net>
Subject: Re: IEC sockets
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 06:37:37 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n017
Thanks Joe but I don't want to hurt the little critters - I just want
to understand them better.
Actually, I could have phrased this question better. I know what
they're supposed to filter out. I would like to understand better
how they do it, whether they are effective and whether something else
would accomplish the task better.
Regards
Ken Dangerfield
On 8 Sep 97 Joe Pledger said:
> Well Ken, I seem to recall that the guts of the filter was a HF shunt.
>
> I've got a few free ones in the junk box if you want to try one or
> disect it for science.
>
> Joe pledger
>
>
=========================================================================
From: "Frank Deutschmann" <fdeutsch@bfm.com>
Subject: Re: IEC sockets
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:46:02 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n017
On Sep 8, 6:56pm, Ken Dangerfield wrote:
> What is an EMI/RFI filter, how does it work, and will it make an audible
> difference on an amp sufficient to justify the additional $4US cost
> each. TIA for advice and suggestions.
On Sep 9, 6:37am, Ken Dangerfield wrote:
> Actually, I could have phrased this question better. I know what
> they're supposed to filter out. I would like to understand better
> how they do it, whether they are effective and whether something else
> would accomplish the task better.
The usual filtered IEC sockets (made by Corcom, et al) are just a few caps
arranged to shunt HF energy out of harms way. They also have a modicum of
inductance in the filter; they are just another weapon in the war on HF/RF
polution of the mains and the general space outside equipment, as well as
preventing some HF/RF intrusion into the equipment.
IMHO, they are essential if you are building a digital-anything (the biggest
single feature they provide is a clean power entrance which is RF-tight). For
non-HF applications, their utility is a little more questionable; yes, they can
help keep some external RF/HF pollution out of your amp, but perhaps there are
better ways of doing that (though the price might be higher). Probably the
best way to filter a power line before a power transformer is to use a common
mode choke (Panasonic makes some nice ones, avail from DigiKey) with a pair of
caps (before and after, Pi-like). All of these things, though, obviously
become part of your power supply, perhaps raising the supply line impdeance
significantly (depending on component values, PS design, amp design, etc). In
this light, the IEC filter will change the amp the least; the common mode choke
approach may significantly change the sound (better or worse will depend on the
situation).
One of the main motivations for using these IEC filters is that they often let
a product squeak through EMI compliance; the filters are far cheaper than
actually fixing the problem and often attenuate emissions enough to meet the
letter of the law. For an amp design for home use, this is much less of an
issue, and it is doubtful that such a small and simple filter would
substantially attenuate the HF emissions from a powerful cap-input power supply
anyway. So, though the IEC filter may help, its probably not going to have
much impact for you (although it is likely a harmless inclusion if you do use
it).
FWIW, I do strongly believe in cleaning the power emissions from all power
supplies; I have seen some pretty strong evidence that RF/HF emissions onto the
power line from an amp can significantly affect other audio equipment in the
chain (or vice versa). But a little IEC filter module isn't going to do much
in this regard!
- -frank
=========================================================================
From: Ron Bales <rbales@mail.gte.net>
Subject: Re: IEC sockets
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 22:50:19 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n018
Ken Dangerfield wrote:
> What is an EMI/RFI filter, how does it work, and will it make an audible
> difference on an amp sufficient to justify the additional $4US cost
> each. TIA for advice and suggestions.
Hi Ken, many of these filters have a cute little drawing on the case
that shows just what is inside. A small choke on each leg and a cap
across to filter stray RF and crud off the power line.
These do not automatically improve the sound. I've heard gear that
sounded worse after adding one - mostly power amps. These seems to work
great on CD players and other lower power source components. Of course
my friends who've tried these may have mis-specced them and ymmv.
ROn
=========================================================================
From: andre@indigo.ie (Andre Jute)
Subject: Re: IEC sockets
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 06:20:47 +0100 (BST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n018
>Ken Dangerfield wrote:
>
>> What is an EMI/RFI filter, how does it work, and will it make an audible
>> difference on an amp sufficient to justify the additional $4US cost
>> each. TIA for advice and suggestions.
Ken
These off the shelf filters are very hit and miss. I've stopped spending
money on trying to find one that works. But note that Bill Kleronomos, who
used to be on the list and works in a recording studio, believes in them.
My experience is that you don't know if you will need a filter until you
have built the amp.
If you fit an IEC 3 point socket and 3 core wiring to the wall (most
desirable), earth the chassis to IEC earth. This can cost you a little hum
(typically in my experience less than 0.8mV--anyone else?) on a DHT amp but
is worth the safety of mind. However, it also seems to attenuate
undesirable externals for reasons the technically-minded might explain to
us. (Carried away to the ground? Only joking!)
Be sure your internal wiring is short. Distributed stars are one solution.
Shield the most sensitive internal wiring, which is signal to the input
valve, and to the driver valve too if the wire is longer than a couple of
inches. You can use all shielded wiring inside the amp if you
wish--whether you should is a controversial matter.
Make your power cord with a shield and a drain. Gordon Rankin published a
design in an early SP that does the biz.
Shielded and/or drained cabling for interconnect and speaker wire will also
help.
Only now do you start worrying about filters. First, cut some of the hash
by running properly rated 0.01uF caps between the live and neutral AC lines
just before you mains primary, one on each side of any switch and/or
additional socket.
All of the foregoing is more important than the filter... (in my opinion,
of course--and depending on where you live, for which see below).
If you are still concerned, run an IWC cap (in the Maplin catalogue for
specifically this purpose, a big polyprop mother even for pretty small
values) from IEC earth to chassis earth in place of the wire in my first
tip above.
*All* of this is your RF 'filter'.
That's it. It works better than a four buck commercial placebo filter, or
a four hundred buck 'medical grade' one for that matter. Unless you live in
an electrically filthy house, or right next to a sportsfield where the PA
is incompetently shielded and broadcasting, not all of this might actually
be necessary for anyone except the truly obsessed, though I might add that
a 24 ft four-core, twin shield power cable I made had a dramatic effect (in
the context of wire as distinct from say a tube swap) when I lived within
a mile of such an antisocial sports ground PA setup.
Andre
Andre Jute
andre@indigo.ie
Communication Jute
the main index to the pages we support for lovers of classical music, for
writers, and for audiophiles is at
http://www.foundmark.com/ComJute/ComJuteF1.html
=========================================================================
From: AnnaLogg@aol.com
Subject: (I figured!!! :-) FWD: Re: Sound list problems
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 15:40:27 EDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n437
Hi Guys! Thought you'd all be interested in seeing the message I got from the
list server administrator regarding the posting problems:
In a message dated 98-10-02 14:01:16 EDT, jimmie@io.com (admin@io.com) wrote:
>
> It turns out there was a problem with the list server and mail was just
> sitting there backing up on it. When we finally got it fixed, there
> were over 18 thousand messages waiting to be sent. The server managed
> to crunch through these and catch back up sometime in the early morning
> on the 2nd. We apologize for this inconvenience. Please let us know
> if you are still having any problems.
>
So, mystery cleared up. And, now we know who to deluge with email when it
doesn't work right, eh? ;-D
Have a great weekend everybody!
Best,
Anna
=========================================================================
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Torbj=F8rn_Lien?=" <mdrivekl@online.no>
Subject: If it ain't broke,
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 19:51:34 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n505
then fix it till it is........
Messing around with tubes, I've always wanted a decent
radio. With tubes. A nice toobed tuner to fit in among
the rest of my stash.
So now It's here. Along with a hard-to-read bad photocopy
of the chematics. It sounds ok,-but I guess my other old,
trusty Sansui TU9900 resolutes better, and in general is
a better radio. Still.
Now, going through the scematics together with a tech. with
hf-knowledge, he sais it looks good,-But speaking of the parts
I myself are able to read,and evaluate: I reeeally dunno..
The PSU I guess is easily upgradeable, and should be too,-
Hyper-simple made, with smoothing and isolation along just a
few RC-filters.
And various coupling cap's between stages look like some ordinaire
polyesters and ceramics (Uhu,-!),and could be replaced with
mil-spec'ed paperinoilers of same vintage.....
Then there is the audio-output stage, that boosts the signal
up to line levels...Oh horror!! This design goes contrary to
everything I've come to believe in! By noticing it, I got so
upset that I was near halfway into soldering it apart, before I
started thinking.....:
Now, an FM-tuners output stage probably follows a certain
standard when it comes to the Lf-cutoff point, the slope-order
of said cutoff-point etc.etc....? Now,-does such a "standard"
exists, and could someone enlighten me?
And also, I started to wonder: Since this output stage *is*
peculiar,-is it possible that it's made like this,-
to compensate for some oddities, or downright distortion
generated in some earlier Rf-stage(s)?
The tuner is a Mc-mr71. Would appreciate any experiences and
knowledge about this one, mods to the same, and about FM-tuners
in general...
Thanx
Best Regards,
Torbjoern Lien, Norway
>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: peterca@ento.csiro.au
Subject: Re: If it ain't broke,
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:43:05 +1100 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n506
>And various coupling cap's between stages look like some ordinaire
>polyesters and ceramics (Uhu,-!),and could be replaced with
>mil-spec'ed paperinoilers of same vintage.....
I'd be carefull there. I have been led to believe that ceramics can be
entirely appropriate for radio frequencies and chosen specifically for
superior performance.
>Now, an FM-tuners output stage probably follows a certain
>standard when it comes to the Lf-cutoff point, the slope-order
>of said cutoff-point etc.etc....? Now,-does such a "standard"
>exists, and could someone enlighten me?
I think most places have a 50 or 75usec equalisation required. IE the top
couple of octaves are boosted for transmission and cut at the end of the
tuner to reduce high frequency noise. Hence you should see a simple 1st
order low pass filter somewhere. (a passive RC before the output buffer in
my case) Same idea as Dolby, phono eq etc but less elaborate. I have a
simple Heathkit solid state tuner that had 75usec eq. In Australia we have
50usec so a change of a cap value corrected a predicted drop of a few db in
the top octave or so. The result was that it sounded a little cleaner and
brighter. I'd check what the standard is in your part of the world and
work out what the tuner is doing. I think 75usec used to be more common
and 50usec is now more common but standards differ between countries as
well as having changed in many places. The other filter you might see is a
19KHz notch filter. A sharp notch is required to remove the FM pilot tone
but allow signal to get through almost up to 19KHz. In my case this is a
combination of various chokes and caps that I havn't tried to work out on
the output of the tuner.
>Torbjoern Lien, Norway
Dr. Peter Campbell (Peter.Campbell@ento.csiro.au)
Div. Entomology, C.S.I.R.O. Ph.61-2-62464053 or -62464158 (w)
Box 1700 Canberra A.C.T. 2601 61-2-62516213 (h)
Australia 61-2-62464173 (fax)
=========================================================================
From: Hartmut Quaschik <Hartmut.Quaschik@bku.db.de>
Subject: Re: If it ain't broke,
Date: 27 Nov 1998 10:07:50 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n506
oops, I sent it to the Joenet admin instead of the list itself,
sorry,
Hartmut
- ---------------------- Weitergeleitet von Hartmut Quaschik/Externe/DB AG/DE am 27.11.98 10:04 ----
-----------------------
An: mdrivekl%online.no @ Internet, sound-request%lists.io.com @ internet
Kopie:
Blindkopie:
Von: Hartmut Quaschik
Datum: 27.11.98 09:44
Thema: Re: If it ain't broke,
Torbjoern,
I once had an MR71, and while I liked it soundwise - it was good but not the best tuner
I had heard so far - it showed some problems: frequency drift, poor stereo separation,
and a much too euphonic sound. I preferred the Quad FM4 over the MR71 when we
did a comparison (this is now 4 yrs. ago). I guess the tuner was heavily misaligned.
I too had some bad xerox copies of the schematics.
In the meantime I had a Dynaco FM-3 which was looking perfect, but was not good
at all. I guess, totally misaligned or something wrong in the HF or IF section.
Now I own an MR67, and although it was damaged a bit by transportation (a little crack
in glass), blown signal strength tube, blown pilot lamps, and a bad tube socket in the IF section
now it is working very very good. Stereo separation is good, reception is good, too,
no frequency drift, and soundwise it is as enjoyable as phono. The previous
owner said, it had been aligned ten yrs. ago. I just have sold my Yamaha CT7000 to
a friend, who now sells his Accuphase T-103, which is good looking, but not musical
at all.
As I am not able to align a tuner, I am glad to have a good sounding, good aligned
tube tuner now.
regards,
Hartmut from Frankfurt, formerly known as from Munich
persönliche Kategorien:
Hartmut Quaschik
SBS GmbH & Co OHG, München
DZP 1 / Frankfurt Projekt RPM
Tel. (DB) 069/265-27111 / (SBS) 089/636-52205/mobil:0170/2278943
=========================================================================
From: Rhthatcher@ra.rockwell.com
Subject: I have arrived: my move to 300B land
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:59:23 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n314
Well, i fixed the Welborne Laurel and it's up and running. i obviously
didn't
pay enough attention to detail as my construction mistake was stupid. But
the voltmeter doesn't lie so it was an easy fix.
my setup:
sota nova v, modded rb300, linn asaka, ear 834p, randy fay linestage,
welborne amp, legacy focus speakers (i know, multi driver, xovers, blah
blah)
no need to upgrade...
the welborne replaced a spectral DMA 50 (which may go with my 'stats
if/when
i find a place to put them, which isn't a concern for months to come)
i'll put ariels agains the legacies when they're built. i guess my uncle
is moving
right along on the woodworking part of the job...
the sound:
on good recordings, GREAT! clannad's In Concert LP is my test record
of choice: female vocals, acoustic instruments, dynamics, solos, huge
soundstage. the amp was really rocking. 10000 maniacs, same thing.
huge sound, fast, clean, wonderful. the bass is a bit shy, or subdued, or
sloppy
or something. could be that the amp can't handle 3 12" woofers per side?
rock music can really suck now. slayer's show no mercy album (recorded
when
the lead guitarist was 17, mind you) sounds bad. maybe it sounds good
on other systems, but the new setup is a bit revealing. i heard a LOT that
i've
never heard before in another reference, REM life's rich pagaent LP. the
vocals
seem to be mixed badly, as if you hear the faders on the board go down on
the
lead as they come up for the backups.
is all rock music compressed out the wazoo? i wait for something of a
dynamic
buildup on tunes and they just fall short. i'm hearing a lot more detail
and i just
expect music to build, and, the compressors kick in and suck out the life.
what a drag.
peter tosh sounds OK. the lower mids on the LP are lacking as it was
pressed
on oil crisis era vinyl. same with bowie on 70's vinyl. CCR was pretty
rockin'.
a mingus LP was pretty dirty and badly recorded, so it's ok.
bottom line, i like what the amp does right. the good thing is that i have
a
pile of records in my listening room from being up 'til 3am listening!
hope
the neighbors won't kill me... the soundstage is HUGE, wide and deep.
the system images like a champ. the mids and highs are soooo clear.
tonight: dead can dance, firehose, mingus, metallica, tracey chapman,
avail,
citizen fish, and more!
all this and i'm using STOCK power cords! i actually like music coming
through
normal copper wire from the wall. cheap outlets, too! :)
enjoying the MUSIC!
- -randy
=========================================================================
From: "Owen Young" <oyoung@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: I have arrived: my move to 300B land
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:13:30 -1200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n315
Randy,
I listen to a wide variety of stuff rock(incl my son's Everclear, Chem
Bros), reggae, jazz and also a large vinyl classical collection... and I
have hooked my 300B SE up to lots of spkrs in the early days.
You need sensitive spkrs AND fairly kind spkr impedance characteristics
IMO.
I have struck great results from a only 90dB/W multi driver SD Acoustics
spkrs... but surprisingly only so-so results from 96-7dB Tannoy DMT studio
monitors(2x15"). Efficiency figures don't tell all.
Your symptoms (sagging LF dynamics?)intuitively suggest to me that the amp
is is entirely happy driving the spkrs?
So, what are the characteristics of these spkrs?
A 300B SE amp CAN rock AND do all the other neat things triode SE can do,
but its sweet spot is narrow!.
Regards
Owen Young
Auckland, New Zealand
oyoung@clear.net.nz
You wrote:
>on good recordings, GREAT! clannad's In Concert LP is my test record
>of choice: female vocals, acoustic instruments, dynamics, solos, huge
>soundstage. the amp was really rocking. 10000 maniacs, same thing.
>huge sound, fast, clean, wonderful. the bass is a bit shy, or subdued, or
>sloppy
>or something. could be that the amp can't handle 3 12" woofers per side?
>
>rock music can really suck now. slayer's show no mercy album (recorded
>when
>the lead guitarist was 17, mind you) sounds bad. maybe it sounds good
>on other systems, but the new setup is a bit revealing. i heard a LOT
that
>i've
>never heard before in another reference, REM life's rich pagaent LP. the
>vocals
>seem to be mixed badly, as if you hear the faders on the board go down on
>the
>lead as they come up for the backups.
>is all rock music compressed out the wazoo? i wait for something of a
>dynamic
>buildup on tunes and they just fall short. i'm hearing a lot more detail
>and i just
>expect music to build, and, the compressors kick in and suck out the life.
>what a drag.
=========================================================================
From: Grover Gardner <groverg@postoffice.att.net>
Subject: Re: I have arrived: my move to 300B land
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:52:50 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n316
Congratulations! You have arrived indeed--the fun is just beginning :-).
Boy, you really put those Welbornes to the test--rock music is a tough call
on 300Bs--not impossible but very demanding--you get some wonderful things
on vocals and strings and such, and lose some other things, but in most
cases you hear more than you wanted to :-) My girlfriend put her favorite
Eric Clapton CD on my system long ago. I thought it sounded great--lots of
detail, good vocal quality, nice guitar sound, the bass was not so hot but
that was the amps. But she was horrified: multi-miking, multi-tracking,
mixing, compression, it was all in evidence. She said it lost its
blended, "live" feeling, and refused to listen to it again.
Grover
=========================================================================
From: "Le Cleac'h J.-M." <lecleach@cgi.ensmp.fr>
Subject: Re: I have arrived: my move to 300B land
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:36:11 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n316
- ----------
> De : Riesz, Ted - PETFISH <Ted.Riesz@mailhost.dpie.gov.au>
> A : 'Grover Gardner' <groverg@postoffice.att.net>;
'sound@deliverator.io.com'
> Objet : RE: I have arrived: my move to 300B land
> Date : vendredi 19 juin 1998 10:30
>
> Hello
>
> Grover said in part in the context of 300B amps" My girlfriend
> put her favorite
> > Eric Clapton CD on my system long ago. I thought it sounded
> > great--lots of
> > detail, good vocal quality, nice guitar sound, the bass was not so hot
> > but
> > that was the amps. But she was horrified: multi-miking,
> > multi-tracking,
> > mixing, compression, it was all in evidence. She said it lost its
> > blended, "live" feeling, and refused to listen to it again."
> >
> My wife has a favourite Eric Clapton CD, unplugged which we
> both agree sounds great through my vintage RCA 1C's and Leak PP EL34's.
>
> I am planning to make the move to SE sound when time and
> finances allow. However from your experience, it might only lead to
> some disillusionment, at least from she who must be obeyed.
>
> Sounds as if I will have to wean her off Clapton by the time I
> get moving on my 300B amp
Hello,
IMHO, that CD is not so bad recorded for a multimiked session and contains
some parts very difficult to reproduce correctly.
IMHO it is quite dynamic and the compression indicated by Grover is far
less important that in most live recordings. This perceived compression by
some of us is may be due to other cause.
By example, when the players tap their feet on the stand, if you don't use
a very very good system, in most cases you hear intermodulation. This could
be a cause of the noticed compression.
BTW on most system those taps, because they are are loud level / low
frequency pulsive waves signals, are not reproduced correctly. Even several
systems I used to listen don't reproduced them "at all"!!!
I guess on my system they are well reproduced because my neighbours asked
me "please don't tap on the floor when you play guitar" :-)
Also I used to compare the CD and the CDV, very interesting! If you don't
have the visual, the sound of the CDV is very very poor, most of the
details who bring lifeness to the music disapppear. I think this is normal
because the purpose of the compression been used is to remove those
details, "acoustically useless" accordingly to psychoacoustic studies.
Best regards,
Jean-Michel "Slow-Hand" Le Cleac'h, Paris, France
Best regards
=========================================================================
From: "Riesz, Ted - PETFISH" <Ted.Riesz@mailhost.dpie.gov.au>
Subject: RE: I have arrived: my move to 300B land
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 18:30:14 +1000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n316
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
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Hello
Grover said in part in the context of 300B amps" My girlfriend
put her favorite
> Eric Clapton CD on my system long ago. I thought it sounded
> great--lots of
> detail, good vocal quality, nice guitar sound, the bass was not so hot
> but
> that was the amps. But she was horrified: multi-miking,
> multi-tracking,
> mixing, compression, it was all in evidence. She said it lost its
> blended, "live" feeling, and refused to listen to it again."
>
My wife has a favourite Eric Clapton CD, unplugged which we
both agree sounds great through my vintage RCA 1C's and Leak PP EL34's.
I am planning to make the move to SE sound when time and
finances allow. However from your experience, it might only lead to
some disillusionment, at least from she who must be obeyed.
Sounds as if I will have to wean her off Clapton by the time I
get moving on my 300B amp
Regards
Ted Riesz
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=========================================================================
From: Grover Gardner <groverg@postoffice.att.net>
Subject: RE: I have arrived: my move to 300B land
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:05:47 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n317
At 6:30 PM +1000 6/19/98, Riesz, Ted - PETFISH wrote:
>Hello
>
> Grover said in part in the context of 300B amps" My girlfriend
>put her favorite
>> Eric Clapton CD on my system long ago. I thought it sounded
>> great--lots of
>> detail, good vocal quality, nice guitar sound, the bass was not so hot
>> but
>> that was the amps. But she was horrified: multi-miking,
>> multi-tracking,
>> mixing, compression, it was all in evidence. She said it lost its
>> blended, "live" feeling, and refused to listen to it again."
>>
> My wife has a favourite Eric Clapton CD, unplugged which we
>both agree sounds great through my vintage RCA 1C's and Leak PP EL34's.
>
> I am planning to make the move to SE sound when time and
>finances allow. However from your experience, it might only lead to
>some disillusionment, at least from she who must be obeyed.
>
> Sounds as if I will have to wean her off Clapton by the time I
>get moving on my 300B amp
Well, "Unplugged" sounds great, it was the older "electric" recordings
which were so disillusioning. As I say, even they sound awfully good, so
provided your wife isn't thrown by hearing a "studio" quality in the
recordings she will probably appreciate the extra warmth in the vocals and
fidelity of string tone, so don't be afraid! :-)
Grover
=========================================================================
From: RALPH POWER <POWER.RALPH@epamail.epa.gov>
Subject: I have arrived: my move to 300B land -Reply
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:51:04 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n314
Alright Randy !!!!!!!
You said :
>Well, i fixed the Welborne Laurel and it's up and running. i obviously didn't
>pay enough attention to detail as my construction mistake was stupid. But
>the voltmeter doesn't lie so it was an easy fix.
Hey, it's part of the initiation ceremony. Just be glad it wasn't a destructive mistake.
(fire, shock, explosion....) Your QC will improve with the next one you build.
>is all rock music compressed out the wazoo? i wait for something of a dynamic
>buildup on tunes and they just fall short. i'm hearing a lot more detail and i just
>expect music to build, and, the compressors kick in and suck out the life.
>what a drag.
I believe that you are correct for the most part ...SE amps are revealing of source.
>the bass is a bit shy, or subdued, or sloppy or something. could be that the amp
>can't handle 3 12" woofers per side?
The bass problem could be the impedance curve for the Legacy's dipping low in the
bass. Might want to check this out. SE amps don't like low/uneven impedance
curves. That danged crossover....a SS sub or biamping might be a solution.
Great to see you having fun,
- Ralph
=========================================================================
From: RALPH POWER <POWER.RALPH@epamail.epa.gov>
Subject: RE: I have arrived: my move to 300B land -Reply
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:20:57 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n316
Hi Ted,
You remarked :
> My wife has a favourite Eric Clapton CD, unplugged which we
>both agree sounds great through my vintage RCA 1C's and Leak PP EL34's.
>
> I am planning to make the move to SE sound when time and
>finances allow. However from your experience, it might only lead to
>some disillusionment, at least from she who must be obeyed.
>
> Sounds as if I will have to wean her off Clapton by the time I
>get moving on my 300B amp
You can sleep well as my experience with this CD (Unplugged) is that it is well
recorded and sounds fantastic on my 300B (VV30B) amp.
On SE, the good recorded stuff gets better, but the bad recorded stuff just shows
those warts in greater detail. It sorts out all that phasiness for better or worse.
Never fear SE, you won't regret it.
My humble opinion,
- Ralph
=========================================================================
From: Finn Hammer <f-hammer@post5.tele.dk>
Subject: I made a 30 inch speaker
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 21:41:35 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n451
Just to tell you, that there are pictures of the TYRANNO speaker, here
http://home5.inet.tele.dk/f-hammer/welcome.htm
It is breaking in well. The amount of emotion this speaker is able to
convey, has me thrilled.
Am I going to be the only one to do this?
Finn
- --
HOME OF
Tractrix Horns, Tube Amps,
Fieldcoil Loudspeakers and Computer Graphics
http://home5.inet.tele.dk/f-hammer/
=========================================================================
From: "Norman Tracy" <ntracy@galstar.com>
Subject: Re: I made a 30 inch speaker
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 22:54:48 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n452
Finn,
Congratulations on your amazing speaker project. May I have permision to
place one of you images and a link to your site on the ACG 'eXtreme' audio
page?
happy listening
Norman Tracy
Audio Crafters Guild
ntracy@galstar.com
http://galstar.com/~ntracy/ACG/
=========================================================================
From: Grover Gardner <groverg@postoffice.att.net>
Subject: Re: I made a 30 inch speaker
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 09:02:05 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n452
Is this a sequal to that classic horror film, "I Married An Amp Builder" ?
Finn, this looks utterly fantastic. Eagerly awaiting the full sonic reports!
Grover Gardner
groverg@postoffice.att.net
=========================================================================
From: "Jon Lane" <jhlane@email.msn.com>
Subject: RE: I made a 30 inch speaker
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 17:56:12 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n453
Re: Finn's amazing speaker project he said:
>I never payed much
> atttention to this fellow before, but when I
> heard it on Dieters mixed system,
> with one TYRANNO right, and one 18"er left, this
> voice was etched with such
> realism, deep, whiskydrinking voice, somehow I
> thought it was a small voice, but
> it is bigger than elvis`. When I say "big" I
> refer to the imaginary visual image
> I get of the singer, based on the sound. This
> speaker is able to reproduce the
> caracter of the voice, including the part that
> doesn`t seem to come out from the
> vocal cords, but rather from the chest itself. It
> is like the singer is standing
> in the room, like you can feel his presence
> through very deep undertones. Like I
> sayt, not very good at describing this, but at
> that moment, I knew I had to have
> a TYRANNO, simple as that.
Best I've ever heard to this day was a triode triamped Altec
three way with field coil 1.4" mids in multi-cell horns.
Even with Alnico 515's in A7 cabs, the sound was as
described here. Spoiled for life.
Jon Lane
=========================================================================
From: Finn Hammer <f-hammer@post5.tele.dk>
Subject: Re: I made a 30 inch speaker
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:52:31 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n453
Grover Gardner wrote:
>
> Is this a sequal to that classic horror film, "I Married An Amp Builder" ?
Absolutely! Allthough wife is not shown, she is the one that would allow me to
follow the advice that I got from Bert Doppenberg: put the speaker in a hole in
the wall. This solution appeals a lot to me, but it has me worried: will the
cone separate at the surround, when someone slams the door? Not a big problem,
you might think, but same wife is of the persuation, thet slamming doors is
perfectly normal behavior in the final stages of a row. (I know what you are
thinking: did she slam the door 6 times, or did she only slam it 5. Well, due to
the commotion, i kind of lost track of it myself, but I feel lucky! with a woman
like that) Anyway
>
> Finn, this looks utterly fantastic. Eagerly awaiting the full sonic reports!
This is difficult for me, I don`t have a lot of words, when it comes to
describing sonic differences, you are so much better at that!
But let me tell why I decided to build this one in the first place:
Ivisited Dieter this summer, on the way to Italy, and he played (apart from the
syntesizer junk he gets on demo disks that he gets now that he has become known,
and which has some spectacular samplings that _can_ sound nice, and which he
likes) "Sweet Surrender" with Elvis and the jordanaires. The jordanaires had(s)
a singer with a really deep voice (I ought to know his name). I never payed much
atttention to this fellow before, but when I heard it on Dieters mixed system,
with one TYRANNO right, and one 18"er left, this voice was etched with such
realism, deep, whiskydrinking voice, somehow I thought it was a small voice, but
it is bigger than elvis`. When I say "big" I refer to the imaginary visual image
I get of the singer, based on the sound. This speaker is able to reproduce the
caracter of the voice, including the part that doesn`t seem to come out from the
vocal cords, but rather from the chest itself. It is like the singer is standing
in the room, like you can feel his presence through very deep undertones. Like I
sayt, not very good at describing this, but at that moment, I knew I had to have
a TYRANNO, simple as that. You can imagine John Lee Hooker, or Tom Waits, when
he really flips his lid: it is downright amazing. It all ads up to that the
speaker lets the emotion of the singer come through. You see, one would think that
this is a bass speaker, and a lot of it`s virtue is due to it`s ability to go low,
but it is really a low-midrange unit, it is clean up to 3500 Hz, so one can forget
about piston action, here. But it is a point-cource from saay 40 and up. I saw a
response curve of the 18 inchčr, and it looked like tall grass: not necessacary a
bad thing, a guernari violin does so too, as opposed to the dull sounding factory
copy.
Disclaimer: I don`t claim that this is the last word in speakers. My standard is
Lowthers in fidelio cabinets, I have never heard Exemplars, or much other high
end gear,the latter long enough to make a lasting impression.
finn
- --
HOME OF
Tractrix Horns, Tube Amps,
Fieldcoil Loudspeakers and Computer Graphics
http://home5.inet.tele.dk/f-hammer/
=========================================================================
From: Scott Grammer <tubedude@cdc.net>
Subject: Re: I made a 30 inch speaker
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 23:41:56 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n453
Grover Gardner wrote:
> Is this a sequal to that classic horror film, "I Married An Amp Builder" ?
> (snip)
No, that would be "The Woofer that Ate Manhattan"
Seriously, Finn. It looks great. Now, when will the 120 inch sub be ready?
:-)
S.G.
- --
Visit TubeDude's Webpage of Vacuum Tube Lore! http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude
Also check out Smoke Free Youth! http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude/smokefreeyouth.html
See what I have for sale! http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/tubedude@cdc.net/
=========================================================================
From: bill gardner <wg44929@navix.net>
Subject: Re: I made a 30 inch speaker
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 07:59:44 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n453
At 09:27 AM 10/14/98 +0200, Le Cleac'h J.-M. wrote:
>On one truck I saw a huge bass loudspeaker, something like 50' loaded by a
>giant cabinet larger than a car (an american car not a french one...). I
>don't know if this a commercial or a DIY product.
>
>
>Best regards,
>
>Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h, Paris, France
>
I bet all the girls tell Finn .... BIGGER is really Better !!!!!!!!!
Best WC Gardner
=========================================================================
From: "Hugh R. Dean" <aspen@alphalink.com.au>
Subject: Re: I made a 30 inch speaker
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 08:02:36 +1000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n453
Hi Finn,
Had a look at your incredible speaker. Just love the construction. Do you
know the sensitivity and FR?
It occurred to me that you need a matching guitar for the 'Back to the
Future' scenario.
Congratulations,
Hugh R. Dean
Melbourne, Australia
=========================================================================
From: "Le Cleac'h J.-M." <lecleach@cgi.ensmp.fr>
Subject: Re: I made a 30 inch speaker
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 09:27:42 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n453
- ----------
> De : Hugh R. Dean <aspen@alphalink.com.au>
> A : Finn Hammer <f-hammer@post5.tele.dk>; sound@deliverator.io.com
> Objet : Re: I made a 30 inch speaker
> Date : mercredi 14 octobre 1998 00:02
>
> Hi Finn,
>
> Had a look at your incredible speaker. Just love the construction. Do
you
> know the sensitivity and FR?
>
> It occurred to me that you need a matching guitar for the 'Back to the
> Future' scenario.
Hello,
Congratulations to Finn also from me!
I once tried to replace the cone and the voice coil of an old loudspeaker I
had. I did a nice cone with a paper somewhat a bit too heavy but the coil
and it's assembly was a real shame, the thing was not perfectly cylindrical
in shape nor centered versus the magnetic field, also on loud signals there
was some friction on the polar piece.
This lead me to convince myself I am not enough clever with my hands to do
such ultraprecise job. A big deception for me but that's life!
The positive thing is that now I can judge and apreciate the merit of the
wonderful job Finn does. Except for painting! ;-)
By the way, 2 weeks ago the "Techno parade" came along the boulevard in
front of me.
On one truck I saw a huge bass loudspeaker, something like 50' loaded by a
giant cabinet larger than a car (an american car not a french one...). I
don't know if this a commercial or a DIY product.
Best regards,
Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h, Paris, France
=========================================================================
From: "Bert Doppenberg" <lowther@wxs.nl>
Subject: Re: I made a 30 inch speaker
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 15:04:29 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n453
Hi Finn,
>Absolutely! Allthough wife is not shown, she is the one that would allow me
>to follow the advice that I got from Bert Doppenberg: put the speaker in a
>hole in the wall. This solution appeals a lot to me, but it has me worried:
will
>the cone separate at the surround, when someone slams the door? Not a big
>problem, you might think, but same wife is of the persuation, thet slamming
>doors is perfectly normal behavior in the final stages of a row. (I know
what
>you are thinking: did she slam the door 6 times, or did she only slam it 5.
Well,
>due to the commotion, i kind of lost track of it myself, but I feel lucky!
with a
>woman like that) Anyway
Protect the door that could be slammed with a "spring" (I don't know the
English name for this...) to prevent the door
closing to fast or/and make a chink at the bottom of the door to release
the pressure.................
>Disclaimer: I don`t claim that this is the last word in speakers. My
>standard is Lowthers in fidelio cabinets, I have never heard Exemplars,
>or much other high end gear,the latter long enough to make a lasting
>impression.
What happened to your Belcanto's? With this kind of sub, how about a Lowther
front horn?
Bert,
- ------
BD-Design -- Ontwikkeling en Distributie van geluidssytemen
E-mail: bd-design@vt52.com http://www.vt52.com/bd-design
Tel./Fax: (0341) 254500 Mobiel: (06) 51242990
Bert Doppenberg - Lowther Club Holland
E-mail: lowther@wxs.nl http://home.wxs.nl/~lowther/home.htm
=========================================================================
From: Jeremy Epstein <jepstein@shwd.com>
Subject: I'm A Doofus, Also : News For Sound-Digest Subscribers
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 14:21:49 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n377
1) I'm A Doofus :
It's become painfully obvious that a private email was sent out to the
list in error. I stand by my comments (what choice do I have?) and I
would like to apologize to Frank for the breach of privacy, and to Pat
for the peevish tone of my (private) reply to him.
Anyway Doc B. knows how I feel about the issue I raised already, and the
rest of you likely don't care. I will go on the record as feeling that
it's better to stand in and hash out our differences together IN A CIVIL
MANNER than to have folks drop out of the list in annoyance. I look
forward to seeing Doc back after VSAC frees up some of his time. And if
anyone wants to take shots at me for what I said, I'll try to be big
about it. (What choice do I have?)
Is it my imagination or did a recent patent ruling just change the
playing field for the whole intellectual-property-rights argument? Is
anyone going to patent the digital representation of the transfer
function of a 300B or can I just go jump in there?
2) News For Sound-Digest Subscribers :
On a brighter note, I can now announce that subscribers to the digest
version of JoeNet may now post to the list too. Thanks to Joe for
allowing me to fix this, and let's hope that the participation by us
digest subscribers improves after this inauspicious beginning!
- -j, who thinks giblets 'n' gravy taste better than my foot in my mouth.
- --
=====================================
Jeremy Epstein .... jepstein@shwd.com
=====================================
=========================================================================
From: Scott Grammer <tubedude@cdc.net>
Subject: I'm Back
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 20:34:38 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n536
Hello, Folks!
I'm back from a bit of reduced computer usage. What have I missed?
S.G.
- --
TubeDude's Webpage of Vacuum Tube Lore! http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude/
Smoke Free Youth! http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude/smokefreekids/
A government that is big enough to give you all you want is big enough
to take it all away.
Barry Goldwater (1909-1998)
=========================================================================
From: Simon Busbridge <S.C.Busbridge@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: I'm Back
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 07:41:06 +0000 (GMT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n537
Welcome back, Scott!
Dr Simon Busbridge
School of Engineering
University of Brighton
Lewes Road
Moulsecoomb
Brighton BN2 4GJ
UNITED KINGDOM
Tel: 0044 (0)1273 642542
Fax: 0044 (0)1273 642327/642301
e-mail: s.c.busbridge@bton.ac.uk, scbusbridge@hotmail.com
On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, Scott Grammer wrote:
> Hello, Folks!
> I'm back from a bit of reduced computer usage. What have I missed?
> S.G.
>
> --
> TubeDude's Webpage of Vacuum Tube Lore! http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude/
> Smoke Free Youth! http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude/smokefreekids/
> A government that is big enough to give you all you want is big enough
> to take it all away.
> Barry Goldwater (1909-1998)
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Scott Grammer <tubedude@cdc.net>
Subject: I'm Back, Many threads....
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 14:05:52 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n408
Hi folks, I'm back again.
First, JC, If you're out there, I understand what you've had to do. I
hate it that it's come to that, but I understand. I went through a
gigantic money crunch myself; had to sell my computer, close my website,
sell some tools, sell lots of cd's, got sued twice, nearly was evicted,
and so I can identify. Seven months and $30,000 later and I'm still only
about halfway out of the hole. I can tell you that it will get better
but once in a financial spiral it ain't easy. If I can be of any help,
let me know. In the mean time, keep your chin up, and things WILL get
better.
Welcome to Kurt and Paul! Paul, I too was (for about 3 1/2 years) a
studio engineer. Perhaps we could swap stories?
Someone asked about soundcards with digital ins and outs. The new
Creative Labs SB Live has them. Check out this url:
http://www.anandtech.com/reviews/systems/sblive/index.html
As for CDROM's as transports, they have for years had SPDIF outputs on
the back, just in need of a cable and an RCA jack. I see no reason that
a CDROM should not make an excellent transport, better in fact than most
due to seriously fast and powerful servos to keep the laser on track at
32x, and stronger than usual lasers which can read through fingerprints
and smudges (but not scratches) more easily than a common home
transport. Further, as for shielding, CDROM drives are quite well
shielded. Just use a 100% shielded cable for the SPDIF out and you'll be
fine.
On the subject of CDRW use: I have an Acer internal EIDE CDRW. It works
well, except at first I had a lot of trouble with creating "coasters";
incomplete cdrs that were useless. This is usually due to buffer
underruns, which are instances when the CDRW can't get data from the
source fast enough, and the buffer in the recorder runs dry. This is
usually caused by processor delays in an EIDE system. SCSI systems
usually don't have such problems. If I had it to do over again, I would
have all SCSI in my computer and no IDE, as SCSI is much faster and does
not burden the CPU at all.
CDR copies are indistinguishable from the originals! They are
bit-for-bit copies and as such are identical. Those who like green pens
should love CDR's; they're green all over. :->
Jitter, which is a variation in the clock speed of the ADC (in the
digital recorder) or the DAC (in the player) is not at issue when
digital copies are made. Jitter is only an issue when the critical jump
from analog to digital or digital to analog is made. Since CDR copies
are straight digital copies, the clock speeds are not important.
CDROMS do contain error correction circuitry; in fact it is much better
than that found in common home players. What they lack is a good
suspension, which -can- make them more susceptible to bumps and knocks.
I would not worry about it though, unless you tend to bump or bounce
your computer around while it's on, and then I wouldn't worry about the
CDROM, but rather the hard drive, which if bumped just right will
destroy itself instantly.
Also keep in mind that audio cd players have both -error correction-
which actually recreates lost data perfectly, using Reed-Solomon
Interleaving and Eight-to-Fourteen Encoding and Decoding, and also
- -error concealment-, which is a process dependent on the D/A convertor
which tries to fill in the gaps of uncorrectable data losses with an
educated guess as to what should be there. Error correction is NOT
audible. Error concealment may or may not be. Data CD's would not
benefit from error concealment because every bit must be correct or the
file is corrupted. Therefore the error correction must be powerful if
less than perfect cds are to be useful.
As for audio extraction, it depends on the drive, the drivers, the OS,
how much memory you have, and what software you use for the purpose. My
system is a K6 233MMX with 128Mb Ram, Win98 and a 6.4Gig HD. It will
copy a 74 minute cd to the hard drive and make an image suitable for
copying in about 5 minutes. That's quick.
Anyway, enough already!
Glad to be back,
S.G.
- --
Check out TubeDude's Webpage of Vacuum Tube Lore!
http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude/
Now with Lemon Scented Borax!
=========================================================================
From: Simon Busbridge <S.C.Busbridge@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: I'm Back - & Nuvistors
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:44:11 +0100 (BST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n384
Hi Folks,
After 3 months away in the P R China and 3,500 e-mails later (I jest not-
forgot to sign off) I'm ready to heat the valves up again.
The M F Nu-Vister has created a lot of discussion and I'm pleased not to
have missed it. It got me thinking too - so I decided to lash up a 6CW4
in the shed. Operating from 150 V into a 4K7 load with a 100 R cathode
resistor, the voltage gain measured about x20. The most striking thing
was the frequency response. Whereas most signal valves start to show
some drop in frequency response about about 20 kHz or so, the response of
this thing was flat until about 500 kHz. Linearity on a ramp input was
good, but I've seen better.
Now I'm going to try to get a pair of 2DV4s; these are 2 V nuvistors with
a lower mu than the 6CW4s and an anode resistance of about 3 K. This
means that I can try them in my transformer coupled DHT pre-amp stage with
only a change of bias potential. Watch this space for what they sound
like!
Best wishes
Simon
Dr Simon Busbridge
Department of Mechanical and Manufacturing Engineering
University of Brighton
Lewes Road
Moulsecoomb
Brighton BN2 4GJ
UNITED KINGDOM
Tel: 0044 (0)1273 642542
Fax: 0044 (0)1273 642327
e-mail: s.c.busbridge@bton.ac.uk
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: I'm Back - & Nuvistors
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 19:18:30 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n386
At 15:44 11-8-98 +0100, Simon Busbridge wrote:
>Hi Folks,
Hi
>After 3 months away in the P R China and 3,500 e-mails later (I jest not-
>forgot to sign off) I'm ready to heat the valves up again.
Luckilly noadays computers have big enough memory to store 3,5 k of mail
>The M F Nu-Vister has created a lot of discussion and I'm pleased not to
>have missed it. It got me thinking too - so I decided to lash up a 6CW4
>in the shed. Operating from 150 V into a 4K7 load with a 100 R cathode
>resistor, the voltage gain measured about x20. The most striking thing
>was the frequency response. Whereas most signal valves start to show
>some drop in frequency response about about 20 kHz or so, the response of
>this thing was flat until about 500 kHz.
Isn't that also due to te low value of the anode impedance ?
>Linearity on a ramp input was
>good, but I've seen better.
What is good in your opinion ?
>Now I'm going to try to get a pair of 2DV4s; these are 2 V nuvistors with
>a lower mu than the 6CW4s and an anode resistance of about 3 K. This
>means that I can try them in my transformer coupled DHT pre-amp stage with
>only a change of bias potential. Watch this space for what they sound
>like!
I never heard nuvistors; can anyone explain the sound, and from the
technical point of view, why they might be better then triodes ?
Guido
>Best wishes
>
>Simon
>
>Dr Simon Busbridge
>Department of Mechanical and Manufacturing Engineering
>University of Brighton
>Lewes Road
>Moulsecoomb
>Brighton BN2 4GJ
>UNITED KINGDOM
>
>Tel: 0044 (0)1273 642542
>Fax: 0044 (0)1273 642327
>e-mail: s.c.busbridge@bton.ac.uk
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: "Mark Donen" <soledadd@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Imelda
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 18:50:06 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n346
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BDB0EA.8CD447C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
IF we are missing the wood for the trees by looking at parts and =
particular brands of tubes as an easy short cut (old amp/speakers/parts =
nostalgia too comes under this same general heading)...then it makes me =
wonder if the audio obsession itself is a really fetish too? Whether =
this is expressed as a backward looking (bad) or forward looking =
obsession (better), it's still an obsession. I mean people I know who =
are really into music, both musicians and not, who couldn't give a toss =
about the equipment (that goes for all of them) other than it be audible =
enough to get into the music. If they make it they might buy a better =
sytem, but that will be the end of it, they won't think about it after =
that.=20
With us audio types, the suspicion is always there that we love the =
medium more than the message ...So it's not so surprising if we have all =
have a bit of the Imelda syndrome in us. It's just whether we have good =
or bad taste in shoes! Or, rather that's what the whole debate is really =
about...
- ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BDB0EA.8CD447C0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT size=3D3>IF</FONT> we are missing the wood for =
the trees=20
by looking at parts and particular brands of tubes as an easy short cut =
(old=20
amp/speakers/parts nostalgia too comes under this same general =
heading)...then=20
it makes me wonder if the audio obsession itself is a really fetish too? =
Whether=20
this is expressed as a backward looking (bad) or forward looking =
obsession=20
(better), it's still an obsession. I mean people I know who are really =
into=20
music, both musicians and not, who couldn't give a toss about the =
equipment=20
(that goes for all of them) other than it be audible enough to get into =
the=20
music. If they make it they might buy a better sytem, but that will be =
the end=20
of it, they won't think about it after that. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>With us audio types, the suspicion is always there =
that we=20
love the medium more than the message ...So it's not so surprising if we =
have=20
all have a bit of the Imelda syndrome in us. It's just whether we have =
good or=20
bad taste in shoes! Or, rather that's what the whole debate is really=20
about...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BDB0EA.8CD447C0--
=========================================================================
From: "T. Loesch" <ezee_e@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Imelda
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 02:05:32 PDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n347
Hi there,
>With us audio types, the suspicion is always there that we love the
>medium more than the message ...So it's not so surprising if we have
>all have a bit of the Imelda syndrome in us.
Well, let's see. I own more pairs of shoes than I own Amplifiers.
I own more CD's than I own pairs of Shoes.
I own WAY more LP's than I own CD's....
Go Figure that "shrink" ;-).
Later Thorsten
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
From: Kalman Rubinson <kr4@is2.nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: Imelda
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 10:36:23 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n347
On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, T. Loesch wrote:
> I own more CD's than I own pairs of Shoes.
Same here.
> I own WAY more LP's than I own CD's....
Ditto.
> Well, let's see. I own more pairs of shoes than I own Amplifiers.
Mmmm, let's say I own more ties than amplifiers.
Kal
=========================================================================
From: "Danielak, Robert M" <robert.m.danielak@lmco.com>
Subject: RE: Imelda
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:29:14 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n347
> ----------
> From: Kalman Rubinson[SMTP:kr4@is2.nyu.edu]
> Sent: Friday, July 17, 1998 10:36 AM
> To: T. Loesch
> Cc: sound@deliverator.io.com; soledadd@worldnet.att.net
> Subject: Re: Imelda
>
> On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, T. Loesch wrote:
>
> > I own more CD's than I own pairs of Shoes.
>
> Same here.
>
> > I own WAY more LP's than I own CD's....
>
> Ditto.
>
> > Well, let's see. I own more pairs of shoes than I own Amplifiers.
>
> Mmmm, let's say I own more ties than amplifiers.
>
> Kal
>
>
ditto to all the above, but i own (have built) more amps than i have ties.
actually, i've probably built more amps than i have CD's ;o
bob.d.
=========================================================================
From: Bart Shepherd <bartonw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: RE: Imelda
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 02:04:24 +1000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n347
I own more amplifiers than my childrens' shoes!
Now to turn the house into a speaker and listen on the
front lawn.
Does the front hall have the right port dimensions or do I
need a new house?
Who said 10 mw was too little.
Later,
Bart (convincing SO of the aesthetics of curved walls)
=========================================================================
From: Josh Karnes <karnes@usa.net>
Subject: i'm gone too
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 07:20:17 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n090
if there is anyone left on this list whenever the frank & andre &
commentary crap is overwith, please write me so i can resubscribe. i'll
see you guys on the addicts list in the meantime.
but i can't stand this crap anymore. later all-
- -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
josh_karnes:
shileen's husband, jordan and hannah's daddy, guitarist, drummer,
composer, songwriter, audiophile, computer geek, mechanic, carpenter,
wannabe gourmet chef, keeper of the faith <><
=========================================================================
From: Mark Donen <soledadd@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Impedance calculation
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 08:47:42 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n452
Hi,
I want to calculate out the impedance of my tweeters when I have a 30ohm
resistor in parallel to them. They have an Re of 6ohms. This is to be
able to figure the precise value of the cap for a first order filter.
Anyone have the formula to calculate this impedance?
=========================================================================
From: Paul Joppa <pdj@ISDNseattle.net>
Subject: Re: Impedance calculation
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:49:12 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n453
Mark Donen wrote:
>
> I want to calculate out the impedance of my tweeters when I have a 30ohm
> resistor in parallel to them. They have an Re of 6ohms. This is to be
> able to figure the precise value of the cap for a first order filter.
>
> Anyone have the formula to calculate this impedance?
You don't have enough information. Re is the DC resistance; you need
to know the AC impedance *as a function of frequency* of the tweeter.
Note that this impedance is complex, not real. Assuming this impedance
at a particular frequency is Xf, then the (complex!) impedance with 30
ohms in parallel is:
1
- ---------
1 1
-- + --
Xf 30
(hope that made sense! - just in case, 1/( (1/Xf) + (1/30) ) is
another way)
OK that's depressing. If the impedance is nearly real (has a small
phase angle) and nearly constant with frequency (typically meaning the
resonance is well-damped mechanically) then Xf is nearly a constant
(real) resistance and you can use this equation as if it were a
frequency-independant resistance.
But why are you worrying about exact values for a first order tweeter
filter?! Almost nothing, mid or tweet, is really flat in phase and
amplitude at high frequencies. And first order filters span such a
wide range so gradually that even fairly large errors are barely
audible. Why not start with Re (I get 5 ohms for 6 parallel with 30)
and get a bunch of caps in that general range (+/- a factor of two
say) and *listen* to the result?
hth,
- -Paul Joppa
=========================================================================
From: MHuber@t-online.de (Manfred Huber)
Subject: Re: Impedance calculation
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 12:21:22 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n453
Mark,
>I want to calculate out the impedance of my tweeters when I have a 30ohm
>resistor in parallel to them. They have an Re of 6ohms. This is to be
>able to figure the precise value of the cap for a first order filter.
The combined value R of two paralleled resistors R1 and R2 is:
R = R1*R2/(R1+R2)
Regards
Manfred
- ------------------
Manfred Huber
MHuber@t-online.de
- ------------------
- ------------------
Manfred Huber
MHuber@t-online.de
- ------------------
=========================================================================
From: Mattijs de Vries <Mattijs.devries@student.utwente.nl>
Subject: Impedance MartinLogan SL3 panels??
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 14:27:04 +0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n007
Hello,
I got two Martin Logan SL3 electrostatic panels (thanks Sander!), with HV
powersupply, but without stepup transformers. I'm thinking of driving them
with a PP SV572-3 amplifier, with a transformer of 6k to 20k (orso), or
directly.
I'm not too sure about this transformer, I don't know anything about the
electrostatic panel proporties. Does anyone have the impedance curves of
the panels or crossover schematic of the SL3? Does anyone know what
transformer is used by Martin Logan originally? Does anyone know the
capacitance of the panels? Are there any schematics of directly coupled
amplifers?
Any help would be greatly appreciated, Hope to hear from you,
- ---
_ Mattijs de Vries Ing.
__|_|__
| __|__ | E-mail : Mattijs.deVries@student.utwente.nl
/ | | \ URL : Http://Cam041214.student.utwente.nl
| | | | Adress : Campuslaan 41-214, 7522 NG Enschede
| | | | Country : The Netherlands, Europe
| |_____| | Phone : +31-53-4895091
\_/|_|\_/ ---------------------------------------------------
|_______| "Nothing shocks me, I'm a scientist", Indiana Jones
|| || ---------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
From: davidbarnett@aristotle.net (David N. Barnett)
Subject: Re: Impedance MartinLogan SL3 panels??
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 15:34:31 GMT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n008
On Mon, 01 Sep 1997 14:27:04 +0000, Mattijs de Vries
<Mattijs.devries@student.utwente.nl> wrote:
> Does anyone know what
>transformer is used by Martin Logan originally?
I dunno much about the specifics, but I was fortunate enough to tour
the Martin-Logan factory in 1989, and at that time their engineer told
me that their stepup transformers had ratios of betwee, 1:50 and
1:100, depending on the model. If you take the output transformer
from a 6V6 or EL84 amp (~8K p-p) and turn it around, connecting the
output of your amp to the 4-ohm speaker taps and the stators of the
ESLs to the 8K plate taps, you'll be somewhere around the low end of
that suggested range.
To get more ratio, you can take TWO transformers, parallel the
secondaries (which you are using as primaries...), and put the plate
loads in series. The Quad ESL63s and the biggest M-Ls use a
dual-transformer system similar to this. If I was any good at
ASCIICAD I'd attempt an illustration.
- --dnb
=========================================================================
From: Steve Van Osdell <svanos@toast.net>
Subject: Impressive Horns!!
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:34:24 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n065
Guys,
I just returned from listening to what, for me, was the best sounding horn
system I have ever heard.
Michael Payne will know who I am talking about, if he is listening.
This guy has 4 of the RCA 'Ubangie' LF horns in his living room! In each
one is two modified EV woofers. He is using 1003 double-throated horns for
HF. He was powering the LF horns on a McIntosh MC 2105 (I think), and the
horns were run off of a tiny 6BQ5 piece of Dynaco amp. He was using an old
SS Pioneer electronic crossover.
These 'Ubangie' (as they were commonly called in theater circles) were, as
I understand it, what replaced the older 1930's vintage RCA horns. The
'Ubangies' were originally 7 feet long because of two ports on either side.
This guy modified them by cutting off one of the ports on opposite sides
so that the non-ported sides fit up against the wall. With two (stacked)
per side, this was visually very impressive. The 1003 horns on top were
just about touching the ceiling.
I understand from him that these can be duplicated fairly easily because he
told me that there was a place where you could buy the curved horns, and
then just build the box around them.
I thought that y'all might find this interesting.
Thanks, Steve
=========================================================================
From: William Hunt <wjhunt@ccnet.com>
Subject: Re: Impressive Horns!!
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 16:18:34 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n065
Steve Van Osdell wrote:
>
> Guys,
>
> I just returned from listening to what, for me, was the best sounding horn
> system I have ever heard.
>
> Michael Payne will know who I am talking about, if he is listening.
>
> This guy has 4 of the RCA 'Ubangie' LF horns in his living room! In each
> one is two modified EV woofers. He is using 1003 double-throated horns for
> HF. He was powering the LF horns on a McIntosh MC 2105 (I think), and the
> horns were run off of a tiny 6BQ5 piece of Dynaco amp. He was using an old
> SS Pioneer electronic crossover.
>
> These 'Ubangie' (as they were commonly called in theater circles) were, as
> I understand it, what replaced the older 1930's vintage RCA horns. The
> 'Ubangies' were originally 7 feet long because of two ports on either side.
...
I have to ask about the origin and meaning of the word 'Ubangie'.
Sounds like something I heard in a W.C. Fields movie about a "Ubangie in
the fuel supply."
Bill Hunt
=========================================================================
From: RALPH POWER <POWER.RALPH@epamail.epa.gov>
Subject: Re: Impressive Horns!! -Reply
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:32:31 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n068
Hi Bill,
You said:
>I have to ask about the origin and meaning of the word 'Ubangie'.
I have always thought that the "Ubangie" was a tribe of natives in Africa.
Maybe Andre can speak about this.....
- Ralph
=========================================================================
From: RALPH POWER <POWER.RALPH@epamail.epa.gov>
Subject: Re: Impressive Horns!! -Reply -Reply
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:52:17 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n069
Hi Ron,
You said regarding Ubangi info:
>You bad, bad boy, Ralph. You couldn't resist, could you.
Hey you guys, I was just responding to a request for info.
Good thing I had my breakfast already (oatmeal, ugh!) :^ b
BTW, I found Antique Electronic Supply on the web now at :
http://www.tubesandmore.com/
Check it out !
- Ralph
=========================================================================
From: Guido Tent <gtent@ehv.sc.philips.com>
Subject: improvements on the CD
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:02:53 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n018
Joe'ers,
I read Thorste's articles with great interest. We had some E-mail before on
supply decoupling and so on. Once you start modifying I think it makes sense
to listen after every single mod
1-You are able to determine if and what is happening (so no dgradation shall
occur)
2-There is the learning effect
3-backwards will always be one step, so you know what you are doing
Have fun
Guido
" 640K ought to be enough for anybody" , Bill Gates, 1981
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herin are my personal ones and do not in
any way reflect opinions or policies of my employer.
Guido Tent
Engineer Electro Magnetic Compatibility
Philips Semiconductors Systems Laboratory Eindhoven (PS-SLE)
Building BE303, (Hurksestraat 19)
P.O.Box 218, 5600MD Eindhoven, The Netherlands
Phone: +31-40-27 24553
fax : +31-40-27 22764
- - Let's make things better ! -
E-mail: guido.tent@ehv. sc.philips.com
Seri : gtent@nlsce1
=========================================================================
From: SSell71096 <SSell71096@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Improvements over the last 30+ years
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 06:24:30 EDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n249
>>Question: people keep putting out new stuff, seemingly "state o'
>>the artsy" equipment, but I wonder about something... Since I
>>have SO many incredibly good sounding recordings from around
>>1960, I bet that people with the $ to buy the necessary equipment
>>30 years ago could listen to music as well as we can these days.
>>Is this the case? If not, what where the major
>>improvements?
>
>Cartridges, Turntables, Speakers.
>To a degree also Amplification.
I'll also add to that list cabling, IMO. Zip cord was big then, and it just
doesn't hack it. Yes much of it is overpriced and some of the stuff is silly,
but some of them can certainly make quite a difference.
=========================================================================
From: "T. Loesch" <ezee_e@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Improvements over the last 30+ years
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:27:33 PDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n249
Hi,
>>Cartridges, Turntables, Speakers.
>>To a degree also Amplification.
>
>I'll also add to that list cabling, IMO.
I'd say more the realisation of the effect Cables have. The Cables I use
now where quite possibly around back then (they did stuff with very high
frequencies back then) but hard to obtain and no-one thought about
it....
> Zip cord was big then, and it just doesn't hack it.
Yup.
>Yes much of it is overpriced and some of the stuff is silly,
Most of it (overpriced) and much of it (silly and does not work either).
>but some of them can certainly make quite a difference.
Most definitly....
Have a read of my Interconnect Articles on TNT-Audio (Tweakings and
Topics Section)
Kind regards Thorsten.
======================================
e-mail:
Thorsten@tnt-audio.com
Visit TNT-Audio on the Web - the only advertising
free audio web-zine.
http://www.tnt-audio.com
======================================
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: Improvements over the last 30+ years
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:48:47 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n250
At 06:24 10-4-98 EDT, SSell71096 wrote:
>>>Question: people keep putting out new stuff, seemingly "state o'
>>>the artsy" equipment, but I wonder about something... Since I
>>>have SO many incredibly good sounding recordings from around
>>>1960, I bet that people with the $ to buy the necessary equipment
>>>30 years ago could listen to music as well as we can these days.
>>>Is this the case? If not, what where the major
>>>improvements?
>>
>>Cartridges, Turntables, Speakers.
>>To a degree also Amplification.
>
>I'll also add to that list cabling, IMO. Zip cord was big then, and it just
>doesn't hack it. Yes much of it is overpriced and some of the stuff is silly,
>but some of them can certainly make quite a difference.
Some passive components might be added as well
Guido
=========================================================================
From: "Frank Deutschmann" <fdeutsch@bfm.com>
Subject: Re: Improvements to the CD-63-67 (I'll be back....)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:45:38 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n029
On Sep 18, 12:43pm, Torsten.Loesch@FinanceManager.Finance.FinanceAndIn wrote:
> If you want, you can use the better Linear Technology adjustable Regulators
or
> even the Didden/Jung Op-Amp + discretes Regultors.
If you do use the Didden/Jung regulator design published in AA a while back,
you might want to change the Didden PC board layout: the layout as given has
the reference device driven from the sense lines, which drops the sense lead
impedance unnecessarily. Best to drive the reference from the force lines, and
keep the sense lines at high impedance, as Jung did in the original
design/analysis. Beware, though, that this circuit on the whole is not too
tollerant of design changes; it would not be very hard to push it into
oscillation!
- -frank
=========================================================================
From: Torsten.Loesch@FinanceManager.Finance.FinanceAndInformation.enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk
Subject: Improvements to the CD-63-67 (I'll be back....)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:43:21 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n029
I have done one more thing in the digital domain. The Quartz Crystal used by Marantz is fairly small
. This may or may not be bad, but experience told me, that chunkier and heavier Components tend to b
e better. Thus I used a larger (mechanical) Crystal Unit to replace the original unit.
Also, after I posted the original set of Mod_s using the Ceramic Chip-Caps I had a chat with Andy Gr
oove (Mr. Ankoru) about digital decoupling. He says that the Black Gate PK Series of Capacitors work
s well. Similar to my Nichicon PL-Series / 1206-Ceramic Combination, the Black Gates are effective t
o over 100MHz on their own. This of Course will only work if You can keep the inductance from the Le
ads and the PCB-Tracks low. For all that fell not exactly like messing around with miniscule SMD chi
p-Caps, You may want to try these.
Improving the Power-Supply for the 57 / 67 / 67SE
Many of You may have wondered, why I have not replaced he Regulators with some exotic stuff or simil
ar things? Well, even the worst 3-pin regulator does do a fairly decent Job as far as keeping the Vo
ltage constant. Even noise-levels are pretty low.
If you want, you can use the better Linear Technology adjustable Regulators or even the Didden/Jung
Op-Amp + discretes Regultors. You can use the LM340T5 for the two 5-Volt Regulators. These Units are
pretty good in digital circuits. I feel however that the difference made with these is small.
Thus in my Unit the original Regulators stayed in place. I instead decided to beaf-up some of the Ca
pacitors in the PSU. Now in the analogue PSU for the 67 Units, Marantz uses two more "silmic" Capaci
tors of only 470uF. This seems highly suspect, but Ken Ishiwata has got his head screwed on the righ
t way around, so I left these alone as well. The 57 uses 220uF standard units. The Circuit denominat
ors are C803, C804. I would personally use at least 1000uF high Quality units here. Use your most li
ked flavour of High Quality Audio Capacitor (ELNA Starget, Black Gate, Sanyo SG Series OS-Con, Nichi
con Muse...). I as usual used 22nF Polyprpopylene bypass Capacitor on these Capacitors.
There are more Caps directly following the +/- 12 Volt Regulators (C805, C806). In these positions I
can only recommend the largest possible Low-Z Capacitor you can lay Your hands on. Panasonic HFQ 6
800uF 25Volt will be dandy. I had to settle for Nichicon PL Series 1000uF 25Volt. Another set of 22n
F bypass Caps go in here.
Any more things to do? More magic parts to come. Some people recommend Schottky Diodes to be used in
the Rectifiers. Does it work? Some people say no. They have measurements to prove it. Other say yes
. I tried them and I say yes - they do make a (not subtle) difference. D801 - D804 where replaced wi
th 1.1 Ampere 90 Volt Schottky Diodes. Across each of these Diodes I placed one of the 100nF (50V) C
hip-Caps.
In the digital PSU_s I used again Schottky Diodes (D811, D812) and placed Ceramic Chips across these
. Ceramics also went across C813, C815. Lastly C871 was again replaced with a Nichicon PL Series 100
0uF 25Volt Capacitor with another ceramic bypass Cap.
Lastly, the CD-67 Main-Board has positions for a Mains-line-filter, which are unused. These are loca
ted near the Mains-switch. Please be careful as you are working here with potentially lethal Voltage
s. Also, if you mess up here, a higher risk of fire may result.
Firstly, there are two unused solder-holes near the position of JH04 which can take the usual Mains
-Filter Film-Capacitor (make sure to use one SPECIFIED for Mains-Filtering - this is dangerous terri
tory).
Another position is provided for a common-mode Choke (LH01) which are bridged by U243, U245. Just pu
t a suitable choke in. I could not get a mains-rated common-mode choke and used two small axial Main
s-rated Chokes. I also used some ferrite beads on the Leads, also acting as Spacers to keep the Chok
es slightly off the Board.
Below the Board there are three Solder-Pads directly at the Power-Transformer Inputs. I used them to
solder one Mains-rated Ceramic-disk Cap (100nF 1000V DC) in place. Again, this Part is specifically
sold for the purpose of filtering Mains-Voltages.
Please do not use anything here that is not specifically designed and specified for mains-filtering
at your local Voltages.
That pretty much sums it up. I also installed a 75 Ohm BNC Connector instead of the original RCA sty
le Connector for the electrical digital Output. Almost all better DAC_s here in the UK use BNC Conne
ctions, so this seemed a sensible step while I was inside the unit.
The last Part (honestly) of this Series will answer the Question:
Is that all? Where do I go from here?
I will also provide a list of Parts needed.
Till then, keep on enjoying the music.
=========================================================================
From: Torsten.Loesch@FinanceManager.Finance.FinanceAndInformation.enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk
Subject: Re(2): Improvements to the CD-63-67 (I'll be back....)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:31:51 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n032
Hi,
> If you do use the Didden/Jung regulator design published in AA a while
back,
I'll actually use a later design published by Jung in EDN.
> design/analysis. Beware, though, that this circuit on the whole is not too
> tollerant of design changes; it would not be very hard to push it into
> oscillation!
I am aware of that. The circuit as published in EDN is inherently instable as
shown. The Load Capacitance is the Problem here. For anyone with less than
extensive experience in analog electronic construction and Circuit debugging
the LT (1033/1085) Parts are the better solution.
Later Thorsten
=========================================================================
From: Torsten.Loesch@FinanceManager.Finance.FinanceAndInformation.enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk
Subject: Improvements to the CD-63-67 (The Return of the Mac...)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:14:46 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n035
Hi Folks,
Honestly, this is the last post (for a while at least).
I wanted to include a Part's list, but simply found it near impossible
without decent Table features in e-mail. You will have to read the lot. It is
possible that a more concise version of this soap opera will appear in the
DIY Section of "The Secrets of HiFi and Home-theater" (www.sdinfo.com). I
will have a list included there with various options depending on the
different Models.
So here goes the rest. As usual, all this you do strictly at your own peril.
I'm happy to answer questions, but sometimes it can take an awfull long time
for me to come back.
If anyone in London is reading that and has got a CD-63/67, drop me a line.
We may be able to do a little A/B ing and go for Pint or something.
- ----------------------------------------------
Not being able to leave well enough, well enough alone (the identifying mark
of the compulsive tweaker - "Doc, can You help me?" -- "Son, I think it is
totally hopeless."), I had to mess about a little more. The "spark" was the
bringing home of a discarded External Case from a DAT Backup-Tapedrive. About
a Year ago I had dropped the unit while it was powered up. The PSU blew and
we ended up installing that Drive internally. The PSU was never repaired and
finally the Case was designated to be thrown out. I intend this Case to house
a Phono-Step-up Preamp (solid state - battery powered).
Dismantling this Case revealed exactly the Mains rated common-mode Choke I
had been looking for. I also "found" the associated Film-Caps and a filtered
IEC-Mains-inlet. Thus I re-did the whole Mains-filter section using these
Parts. I mounted the IEC Inlet at the Back of the Player, so I can experiment
with Mains-Leads in the Future. For the time being, I used a spare Kettle
lead (large cross-section Leads).
I also had another "stab" at the PSU. Out came the two 470uF "Silmic"
Capacitors in the Analog PSU (C803, C804) to be replaced with two 4,700uF
50Volt Units. There is space on the Board for for fairly large Cap's. These
would ideally be Elna Cerafine or similar Units. I used what I had at hand
(ordinary low-Z stuff). I again placed a Bypass-cap across these, this time
two red 0.22uF WIMA Cap's.
I now had two 470uF "Silmic" Cap's to spare. What to do with them? CD15 and
CD16 near in the DAC's analog PSU-Lines where so far Nichicon PL Series ones.
Why not try the Silmic? So in they went. I also swapped Q811 (a 7805
Regulator - supplies the Dac and Decoder-Chip) for a LM340T5 as I suggested
earlier.
Looking at the analog Filter in Pspice, I noticed that the Filter has slight
"bump" in the upper treble. While this is small, I had a look around how to
change this, as I felt that CD-Player was too bright anyway. Replacing C607
and C608 with a slightly larger value unit will help. I used 150pF (again 1%
Philips), but up to 220pF seem workable. Try out various values for Your
desired result. With 150pF the -3db Point of the Filter is changed to about
30kHz from 40kHz in the original Version.
Lastly, having had such success with LC decoupling in the Digital Department,
I also introduced it in the analog Circuit. Here R613 to R616 and R 651 to
R654 where replaced with 2,2mH (If I can read the coding correctly - they
where salvaged from some board) Axial Inductors with a measured DC of 1.5
Ohm. This is a much better solution than just shortening these Resistors out
as it is suggested by a number of People.
The aim here is to improve the Bass performance by making the Impedance of
the PSU at low frequencies lower. Using Inductors does help to decouple
things pretty well at higher frequencies, reaping the full benefit of the
superior Quality local Decoupling Cap's in the Midrange and Treble.
Soundz of Muzik
Now it is time for some subjective impressions. I did all the described MOD's
in three steps. In the first round I really did the Bulk of the MOD's. I only
had to omit the Schottky Diodes and Polystyrene Capacitors (I forgot to buy
them).
The result was a more weighty, substantial Bass and more Detail in general.
Quite pleasant, but some of the nasty characteristics remained. Putting in
the Schottky Diodes and Polystyrene Cap's in the Filter cured not only the
excessive sibilance of the Player but again helped to reveal more Detail and
ambience. Was it the down to the Schottky Diodes or the Polystyrene Cap's or
do I hear things (I definitely do, actually!)? Who knows, I certainly don't.
However the Player was (in my opinion) still too bright and the "timing and
pacing" (yes the very NAIM-ness of it) was not that good on faster track's.
The last round of MOD's (the bigger analog PSU Cap's, analog LC Decoupling
and the changes in the Filter) cured that rather nicely. The time-honoured
recipe of beefing up the PSU Cap's helped in the timing department, while the
small change in the Filter smoothed out the high-end. As added bonus, the
Player now digs out Bass frequencies I never knew where on these recordings.
Note, that the second and third step of MOD's happens to be largely a
fine-tuning exercise, changing specific parameters to achieve MY personally
favoured Sound. You may actually like the Bass-performance of the Original
Version better. You may also prefer the slight rise in the upper treble. The
slight veiling of detail before the Schottky Diodes (yes I honestly think
they are responsible - but I'm not going to take them out again to prove it)
may be to your liking more than the "warts, dirty stuff and all" approach my
unit now takes.
Let's face it. This CD-Player now does gets fairly close to the Master-Tape.
It does not editorialise. It does not omit much. It adds very little of it's
own. Ultimately resolution is limited if compared to my Turntable and
specifically when re-creating the accoustics of the original room is
concerned the Turntable is still ahead, though the Turntable just about draws
with the CD-Player where Bass is concerned.
Where do I go from here?
So where do we go from here? Well few easy to do things remain. We can
improve the Master-Clock further by adding a Tricord Clock 2 Board (a high
precision X-Tal oscillator) or something similar.
We can build an external Power-Supply unit along the lines of a NAIM-Supercap
meets Norman Tracy's X-Dac advanced Power.
Say two 330 Watt Toroidal Transformers (one 2 X 18 Volt AC and one 2 X 12
Volt AC) with 12,000uF (12 X 1,000uF Nichicon PL or panasonic HFQ Series)
Filtering per Voltage and some Chokes and polypropylene Cap's thrown in for
good measure with LM317/337 Pre-Regulators.
This would give us two separate "raw" 9Volt Voltages for the two 5Volt
Supplies and the "raw" Voltage for the +/- 12 Volt Supply. In this case the
+/- 12 Volt regulators should be really replaced with Linear Technologies
LT1033/1085.
We could also call it Black Gate or Os-Con Caps all around the analog
Supplies and replace all resistors there with Vishay Bulk Foil Types. If you
have a standard 67, it may be worthwhile to buy all Black Gates or Os-Con's
for the analog PSU's while while you do the MOD's.
In my (SE) Unit applying "waste not - want not" ended me up with Elna Silmic
or Starget Capacitors all around the analog supplies and at the DAC's analog
supply anyway.
You could possibly build a fully discrete Class A analog Stage (or even a
valved one). It should be noted though, that the digital Output of the DAC
necessitates high Order (at least 4th Order) reconstruction Filters and the
differential Output also forces a fairly complex Circuit. Given that the
Op-Amp's used work for the Impedance's used in Class A throughout and are
about as good as solid state gets, gains again may be small.
Another last tweak would be the use of Blue Led's to light up the CD, for
whatever that does. I had a look around the transport and could not see any
simple way to accomplish this with a single LED (no place to put it). Thus we
would need a "Flood-light" battery of Blue (or green) LED's to "bathe" the CD
in this "magic" light. This approach may however give problems with the
additional Current Consumption from all the LED's.
It apparently does make a difference though. Krell demo'd for a while a
version of their integrated CD-Player which allowed the Bank of green LED's
in the CD-well to be switched off. Those who witnessed these demonstrations
are adamant that the LED's did indeed improve the Sound. Go figure.
The Cost of most of these undertakings is fairly substantial. All but the
Black Gate / Vishay approach will require very substantial amendments to the
Unit as well. You are of course free to go much further than I did.
However I personally feel that these additional MOD's go way beyond the
Spirit of my original exercise, which was to stay within the Budget for a
Marantz CD-63 KI-Signature (500 British Pound or 800 US Dollar) and to turn
the CD-67 SE into something better. Given that the CD-67 SE lists at 350
British Pound (550 US Dollar), I think I stayed well within my Budget.
I managed to get away without too much major Surgery on the Unit. Really the
only Telltale sign on my unit is the IEC-Mains Connector and the new RCA
Jack's. Leave that one out of the list, and the unit remains almost entirely
indistinguishable from a "stock" Unit (leaving the bypass cap's below the
Board out of the picture and of course the Sound). Many people that are handy
with their Tool-kit and Soldering Iron should be able to implement most or
even all of these MOD's without too much difficulty.
Mission accomplished. As usual, Your milage may vary.
One last warning. During the (so far) final set of my MOD's something
happened in the Anode-voltage switching of the Display, leaving the display
off. Having the Service-manual (and some skills in fault-finding) allowed me
to zero in on the problem quickly and fix it even without taking the Board
out.
As for adapting all or any of these tweaks to other CD-Players, most can be
adapted easily. I strongly suggest however to make sure to get the Service
Manual and if possible the Design Reference Sheets for the Chip's used (I had
them for all Chips in the CD-67).
Kind regards Thorsten.
======================================
e-mail:
Torsten.Loesch@enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herin
are my personal ones and do not in any
way reflect opinions or policies of my
employer.
web-pages:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~tloesh_2
======================================
=========================================================================
From: "Thorsten \"EZEE\" Loesch" <tloesh_2@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Improvements to the CD-63/7.. (1st in a Series of 3)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:43:12 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n017
Hi all,
Following a large spar of interest in CD-Player Mod's I thought I write up
what I have done and just drop it around. I'll have to split that into
three installments however. I hope no-one feels I'm wasting bandwidth, if
so let me know.
I suggest to get yourself a Service Manual for the unit in any Case.
Also PLEASE make sure to unplug the unit before opening it (it should be
really unnecessary to say this here, but one never knows).
Note that opening the Player will void any warranty and that all you are
doing you are doing at your own risk.
Please note that Your milage in doing any of the described Modifications
may vary.
Much that I have done specifically for the CD-67 SE (well now TL Signature
:-) ) can be adapted to other CD-Players by those skilled in the Art. It
does help however to start with something at least half-decent :-)).
Mechanical Improvements to the CD-53/63/63SE/63KIS/57/67/67SE
As with most budget conscious CD-Players, one of the most inadequate parts
that make up the whole is the Chassis/Case. Marantz's Ken Ishiwata has
realised that himself and therefore the MAIN improvement the SE-Series
CD-Players received was purely mechanical.
A Cross-brace is added to the rear part of the chassis and a substantial
Bottom Plate is added too. Anyone who has access to a metal-workshop can do
that him- or hers-self. Just put that Bottomplate to it and look at things
with an eye to make the whole assembly more rigid. I decided to pay the
additional money for a CD-67-SE as I have not got anything suitable around.
Still, even for the "improved" Version of the CD-67, the Chassis and "hood"
are quite resonant. It is very easy to apply some effort here. I purchased
some self-adhesive Bitumen Pads usually sold as damping Material for Car's
(aka - Dead-sheets). It is very easy to work with, just use a standard
utility knife and a steel ruler to cut the stuff.
I used overall about three and a half sheets of a 12" X 12" size. I applied
one layer directly to the additional Bottom Plate. Knock-knock - better,
but not quite there yet. To get at the inside of the Unit's chassis You
need to dismantle the entire unit. You may not want to do that. In this
case skip the next Paragraph, the improvement from the single layer should
be quite notable as it is.
After I had everything removed from the Chassis and all Connections
disconnected, I started to apply small rectangular Patches to the Sides of
the Chassis and at "nodal" Points around the Bottom. The Idea is not to
obstruct anything, yet to achieve a maximum damping effect.
If you have not taken the whole unit to pieces, at least remove the
cross-brace and apply some Bitumen Strips to it's underside. Do not forget
to put the thing back (I did twice). Now take the Hood. Apply one complete
layer of Bitumen Pads to the Top (inside of course). You may want to
possibly put two layers there. Apply one rectangular strip each to the
sides (inside of course) of the Hood making sure not to foul the holes for
the Screws.
On top of the Transport there are two grooves or indention's which are
easily fitted with one small rectangular piece each. I also applied a layer
to the middle in-between these two, but it is essential here not to foul
the Mechanism. I also applied one small patch to each side of the Transport
unit. This is done best with Transport removed (as some of You have done
earlier). If you did not dismantle the whole unit, skip this step.
As finishing touch I did replace the stock Feet with a set of three
"Spike-dampers" from Goldring in a three-point arrangement (two in front,
one in the back). These Spike-dampers did cost me about thirty British
Pound, feel free to use Your favourite "footwear" in this place. I glued
these "Spikedampers" on and use them Point down.
This was easy, wasn't it? Now one last look, check nothing is askew and
re-assemble the Unit. Plug in and enjoy the Music. I did so a lot :-).
Kind regards Thorsten.
======================================
e-mail:
Torsten.Loesch@enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herin
are my personal ones and do not in any
way reflect opinions or policies of my
employer.
web-pages:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~tloesh_2
======================================
=========================================================================
From: David Bardes <David_Bardes@zd.com>
Subject: Re: Improvements to the CD-63/7.. (1st in a Series of 3)
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 14:29:36 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n018
Hi Thorsten,
Thanks for the modification idea, I will employ it on my 63SE. An
alternative to the spikes is Norsorex spheres al a Audioprizms Isoshperes.
Edmund Scientific has these as part of a experimenters pack labeled "Happy
and Unhappy Balls" . For $5 US, these come with one regular "super ball"
(happy ball) and one Norsorex ball (unhappy ball) perfect for use as feet.
To keep these from rolling around, I used metal washers available from any
hardware store to set them in. It's a nice tweak for CD players, turntables
and even VCRs.
David
Previous Message
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --
Hi all,
Following a large spar of interest in CD-Player Mod's I thought I write up
what I have done and just drop it around. I'll have to split that into
three installments however. I hope no-one feels I'm wasting bandwidth, if
so let me know.
I suggest to get yourself a Service Manual for the unit in any Case.
Also PLEASE make sure to unplug the unit before opening it (it should be
really unnecessary to say this here, but one never knows).
Note that opening the Player will void any warranty and that all you are
doing you are doing at your own risk.
Please note that Your milage in doing any of the described Modifications
may vary.
Much that I have done specifically for the CD-67 SE (well now TL Signature
:-) ) can be adapted to other CD-Players by those skilled in the Art. It
does help however to start with something at least half-decent :-)).
Mechanical Improvements to the CD-53/63/63SE/63KIS/57/67/67SE
As with most budget conscious CD-Players, one of the most inadequate parts
that make up the whole is the Chassis/Case. Marantz's Ken Ishiwata has
realised that himself and therefore the MAIN improvement the SE-Series
CD-Players received was purely mechanical.
A Cross-brace is added to the rear part of the chassis and a substantial
Bottom Plate is added too. Anyone who has access to a metal-workshop can do
that him- or hers-self. Just put that Bottomplate to it and look at things
with an eye to make the whole assembly more rigid. I decided to pay the
additional money for a CD-67-SE as I have not got anything suitable around.
Still, even for the "improved" Version of the CD-67, the Chassis and "hood"
are quite resonant. It is very easy to apply some effort here. I purchased
some self-adhesive Bitumen Pads usually sold as damping Material for Car's
(aka - Dead-sheets). It is very easy to work with, just use a standard
utility knife and a steel ruler to cut the stuff.
I used overall about three and a half sheets of a 12" X 12" size. I applied
one layer directly to the additional Bottom Plate. Knock-knock - better,
but not quite there yet. To get at the inside of the Unit's chassis You
need to dismantle the entire unit. You may not want to do that. In this
case skip the next Paragraph, the improvement from the single layer should
be quite notable as it is.
After I had everything removed from the Chassis and all Connections
disconnected, I started to apply small rectangular Patches to the Sides of
the Chassis and at "nodal" Points around the Bottom. The Idea is not to
obstruct anything, yet to achieve a maximum damping effect.
If you have not taken the whole unit to pieces, at least remove the
cross-brace and apply some Bitumen Strips to it's underside. Do not forget
to put the thing back (I did twice). Now take the Hood. Apply one complete
layer of Bitumen Pads to the Top (inside of course). You may want to
possibly put two layers there. Apply one rectangular strip each to the
sides (inside of course) of the Hood making sure not to foul the holes for
the Screws.
On top of the Transport there are two grooves or indention's which are
easily fitted with one small rectangular piece each. I also applied a layer
to the middle in-between these two, but it is essential here not to foul
the Mechanism. I also applied one small patch to each side of the Transport
unit. This is done best with Transport removed (as some of You have done
earlier). If you did not dismantle the whole unit, skip this step.
As finishing touch I did replace the stock Feet with a set of three
"Spike-dampers" from Goldring in a three-point arrangement (two in front,
one in the back). These Spike-dampers did cost me about thirty British
Pound, feel free to use Your favourite "footwear" in this place. I glued
these "Spikedampers" on and use them Point down.
This was easy, wasn't it? Now one last look, check nothing is askew and
re-assemble the Unit. Plug in and enjoy the Music. I did so a lot :-).
Kind regards Thorsten.
======================================
e-mail:
Torsten.Loesch@enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herin
are my personal ones and do not in any
way reflect opinions or policies of my
employer.
web-pages:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~tloesh_2
======================================
=========================================================================
From: "Thorsten \"EZEE\" Loesch" <tloesh_2@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Improvements to the CD-63/7 (and the bit goes on...)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 19:36:48 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n020
In the last two instalments on the CD-63/67 Series CD-Player modifications
we have "behaved" ourselves. No "magic" tweaks. No magic components. No
Zen transcending the ordinary. Implementing all the modifications from Part
one and two will certainly make the Unit you are working on a more
competent, more enjoyable Player. It will not make the Step beyond just
being a competent Player though. And that is a shame.
Fret not my fellow AMA Member (Anonymous Music Addicts - I hate the work
Audiophile - it sounds like some kind of deviant sexual behaviour). The
cure for digitalitis is close.
We can scale this mountain with a lot of patience and little money in
Parts. Parts are Parts are Parts - or are they? Let's consider. I have a
background in industrial electronics. That by default means mixed-signal
environments.
A CD-Player is also a mixed Signal device. It contains a number of
High-Speed Digital and DSP (Digital Signal Processing) Chips. Compared with
the latest Pentium MMX or whatever the unit may seem to use low
clock-speeds (~17MHz). But then, we have a much faster Device here than the
many 386 Processors. And we want music, scale, dynamics and resolution from
the unit. As many people can attest, that is a very tall order. We really
need to turn back to my mixed signal days in the 80's and my experience
with servicing radio-frequency-equipment to come up with improvements.
So here goes. First of all, the CD-Player uses a Ground-plane (split
between digital and analog). That is good. The HDAM units in the better
Models are shielded with copper. The rest is wide open.
Here's tweak one: get some very thin copper (ideally self-adhesive Foil
sold for anti-EMF treatment) and shield all IC's. I essentially wrapped
some around the Op-Amp's (take care not to shorten out any pin's). I
scratched some of the lacquer away from the top of the PCB near the
Op-Amp-cases to expose the copper of the Ground-plane. I soldered these
shields directly to the groundplane. Solder very carefully here as You may
fry the Op-Amp's otherwise. Let the Shield cool down if You need more than
one attempt.
I also applied similar shields to the DAC and Decoder IC (small many-pinned
Surface Mount Devices below the PCB) here connecting the shield to the
ground below the DAC. The shield on top of the Decoder (SAA73272 - Q102)
was connected to ground with a very short "jumper-lead". Soldering these
shields is even touchier than the ones on the Op-Amps. Make sure You have a
steady hand.
Finally we have the Micro-Processor (large Chip in the Front of the Board).
This is certainly a source of RFI. Again shielding with some Foil helps.
If you cannot get Copper-Tape or similar material (I used extremely thin
copper sheets, cut to size with small scissors and glued with Contact-Glue)
You can use self-adhesive Aluminium Tape, which is widely available.
Soldering this is fairly difficult though. Special Solder to solder
Aluminium is available (Maplin does the stuff in the UK). It contains very
aggressive flux and needs very high temperature to work. I had success
cutting this Tape to size and soldering Jumper-wires on while still having
the paper on the back. About one of three attempts yielded a Piece of
Aluminium that could still stick. After that I cleaned the flux-residue off
using isopropanol Alcohol. This is so much trouble that I go miles for a
bit of Copper these days.
I "finished" the whole process off with a small square pieces of Bitumen
Pads (see part one), each roughly the size of the IC it was destined for.
The Idea here is to "damp" the Chip. I have no clue if it works or not, it
didn't cost anything (I used cut-offs from Part one) and cannot do harm in
this case. Other pieces of electronic may stress the chip's used more,
causing them to get hot. In this case I'd leave the Bitumen Pad off. Small
Heatsinks are also available for Op-Amps and the like. These should also
help in "damping" the Chip and will help to run the Chip cooler.
Next Stop, the Digital Power-Supply lines. We have already established,
that we are really dealing with a complex mixed signal unit here. Many
Circuit traces carry substantial currents with high frequencies. All that
pollutes the PSU lines substantially. Check it out if You have a 'scope.
Nice and furry traces where we want to see pure DC. Even worse, these long
circuit traces make brilliant aerials, both receiving and transmitting. I
found the amount of RF-hash on the PSU lines quite worrisome.
Marantz uses standard Electrolytic Capacitors, Resistor-Filtering and
leaded Multilayer Ceramic (MLC) Capacitors of small Values to control all
the RF. Not very effective.
I read a lot and modelled a lot and took some educated guesses and some
"gut-feeling" and came up with the following:
Find RD01, RD04 (near the DAC-Chip) R117, R118, RF01 (near the
Micro-Processor Chip - between that Chip and the X-Port). They all look the
same and stand out. I replaced these with 1mH miniature Chokes (14 Ohm
DCR). These Chokes have a self-resonance of around 1MHz (my ones came from
Maplin). They look like large resistors. Now 1MHz is not enough for us. We
need to extend the effectiveness here to much higher frequencies. Enter
three small Ferrite-Beads each (sold in bags of 10 for pennies). These are
threaded onto the leads of the Choke, usefully extending the effectiveness
to very high frequencies.
As mentioned before, the Capacitors used by Marantz in the digital section
are also nothing to write home about. So out go C126 (small board attached
to the X-Port),
C157, C114, C120, CF02 (all 47uF 16V), to be replaced with Nichicon PL
Series ultra low ESR Types. I suggest to use 100uF 50Volt (my ones are from
Maplin). Alternatives are Panasonic HFQ (sold in the States by Digi-Key -
unavailable in the UK). Elna RSH should work too. Please do not use
"Super-low-Z " units (like the Panasonic FA Series).
All of these have small ceramic bypass units on the Board. I did solder
100nF 50Volt X7R 1206 Surface Mount Capacitors across them below the Board.
Some where also placed closer to the IC-Pin, but that is again very
delicate.
Similar configuration where used around the DAC. I replaced CD04, CD07 with
220uF/50Volt Nichicon PL Units. For CD15, CD16 I used 470uF 50Volt. Here I
removed the original ceramics (CD04, CD06, CD12, CD13) in order to place my
100nF SMD Caps as close to the Pin's of the DAC as possible. Again,
soldering these SMD Units is a tricky job. Steady hands and a small
Soldering iron are a must.
DO NOT REMOVE ANY OF THE ORIGINAL CERAMICS UNLESS YOU REPLACE THEM!!
Having modelled this PSU-Decoupling arrangement in PSpice (thanX to Guido
for supplying me with data on the R & L values for Ferrite beads) it seems
that the suppression of RF-Hash from this arrangements is about 40db more
effective than the original Circuit. Traces observed on the 'scope are
clean.
I think I have to stop here today. Next time around, we deal with Main
Power-supply and some more magic parts and Ceramic SMD-Caps. Seems my
original trilogy turns into a veritable Soap Opera.
Til then, have fun soldering.
Kind regards Thorsten.
======================================
e-mail:
Torsten.Loesch@enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herin
are my personal ones and do not in any
way reflect opinions or policies of my
employer.
web-pages:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~tloesh_2
======================================
=========================================================================
From: "Thorsten \"EZEE\" Loesch" <tloesh_2@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Improvements to the CD-63/7 (and the bit goes on...)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:35:16 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n021
Guido,
> >So here goes. First of all, the CD-Player uses a Ground-plane (split
> >between digital and analog). That is good.
>
> It is NOT GOOD. Where are the plains going to meet, and what is going to
> happen there ?
>
> Keep control over your currents, and use ONE plane. Digital ground and
> analog ground do not exist. It is one and only same reference that you
have.
Sure. I think where we mainly disagree is in that I'm trying to squeze the
last
bit of perfomance from Mass-Fi and I do not build something new. As in our
private discussion, IF I WHERE TO CONSTRUCT something new (I can't,
not good enough measuring equipment) I would go about things differently.
> Shielding onl reduces the local electrical radiation above let me say 300
> MHz (yes a pentium radiates there, a CD player not so much anymore (if
> properly designed). It does not change or improve the current
distribution
> on the PCB
Well, it's not too much hassle to implement and it will certainly do no
harm.
> And you did not filter ALL wires from and too the ICs, so your problem is
> still there.........
Well, I did - later.
> Another misconception: You should measure the CURRENTS THROUGH the supply
> lines, the voltage is of NO interest (as long as the voltage is clean in
> terms of functional needs)
Sure. I WOULD MEASURE THE (AC) CURRENT if I had anything better than a
Multi-
meter and an ancient Philips two-channel tube-'scope.
Kind regards Thorsten.
======================================
e-mail:
Torsten.Loesch@enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herin
are my personal ones and do not in any
way reflect opinions or policies of my
employer.
web-pages:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~tloesh_2
======================================
=========================================================================
From: Guido Tent <gtent@ehv.sc.philips.com>
Subject: Re: Improvements to the CD-63/7 (and the bit goes on...)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:08:52 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n022
Guys,
Read the whole mail, it's a long story. My first comments are very opposite
to Thorstens', but in the end we do agree upon most
>So here goes. First of all, the CD-Player uses a Ground-plane (split
>between digital and analog). That is good.
It is NOT GOOD. Where are the plains going to meet, and what is going to
happen there ?
Keep control over your currents, and use ONE plane. Digital ground and
analog ground do not exist. It is one and only same reference that you have.
>The HDAM units in the better
>Models are shielded with copper. The rest is wide open.
Shielding onl reduces the local electrical radiation above let me say 300
MHz (yes a pentium radiates there, a CD player not so much anymore (if
properly designed). It does not change or improve the current distribution
on the PCB
>Here's tweak one: get some very thin copper (ideally self-adhesive Foil
>sold for anti-EMF treatment) and shield all IC's. I essentially wrapped
>some around the Op-Amp's (take care not to shorten out any pin's). I
>scratched some of the lacquer away from the top of the PCB near the
>Op-Amp-cases to expose the copper of the Ground-plane. I soldered these
>shields directly to the groundplane. Solder very carefully here as You may
>fry the Op-Amp's otherwise. Let the Shield cool down if You need more than
>one attempt.
And you did not filter ALL wires from and too the ICs, so your problem is
still there.........
>I also applied similar shields to the DAC and Decoder IC (small many-pinned
>Surface Mount Devices below the PCB) here connecting the shield to the
>ground below the DAC. The shield on top of the Decoder (SAA73272 - Q102)
>was connected to ground with a very short "jumper-lead". Soldering these
>shields is even touchier than the ones on the Op-Amps. Make sure You have a
>steady hand.
>
>Finally we have the Micro-Processor (large Chip in the Front of the Board).
>This is certainly a source of RFI. Again shielding with some Foil helps.
And again, you forget the currents running through ALL the in and output
pins of the ICs (and the worst are the power supply lines, because the
industry, nor most DIY guys do not know the good sollutions)
>If you cannot get Copper-Tape or similar material (I used extremely thin
>copper sheets, cut to size with small scissors and glued with Contact-Glue)
>You can use self-adhesive Aluminium Tape, which is widely available.
>Soldering this is fairly difficult though. Special Solder to solder
>Aluminium is available (Maplin does the stuff in the UK). It contains very
>aggressive flux and needs very high temperature to work. I had success
>cutting this Tape to size and soldering Jumper-wires on while still having
>the paper on the back. About one of three attempts yielded a Piece of
>Aluminium that could still stick. After that I cleaned the flux-residue off
>using isopropanol Alcohol. This is so much trouble that I go miles for a
>bit of Copper these days.
>
>I "finished" the whole process off with a small square pieces of Bitumen
>Pads (see part one), each roughly the size of the IC it was destined for.
>The Idea here is to "damp" the Chip. I have no clue if it works or not, it
>didn't cost anything (I used cut-offs from Part one) and cannot do harm in
>this case. Other pieces of electronic may stress the chip's used more,
>causing them to get hot. In this case I'd leave the Bitumen Pad off. Small
>Heatsinks are also available for Op-Amps and the like. These should also
>help in "damping" the Chip and will help to run the Chip cooler.
>
>Next Stop, the Digital Power-Supply lines. We have already established,
>that we are really dealing with a complex mixed signal unit here. Many
>Circuit traces carry substantial currents with high frequencies. All that
>pollutes the PSU lines substantially. Check it out if You have a 'scope.
>Nice and furry traces where we want to see pure DC. Even worse, these long
>circuit traces make brilliant aerials, both receiving and transmitting. I
>found the amount of RF-hash on the PSU lines quite worrisome.
Another misconception: You should measure the CURRENTS THROUGH the supply
lines, the voltage is of NO interest (as long as the voltage is clean in
terms of functional needs)
>Marantz uses standard Electrolytic Capacitors, Resistor-Filtering and
>leaded Multilayer Ceramic (MLC) Capacitors of small Values to control all
>the RF. Not very effective.
>
>I read a lot and modelled a lot and took some educated guesses and some
>"gut-feeling" and came up with the following:
>
>Find RD01, RD04 (near the DAC-Chip) R117, R118, RF01 (near the
>Micro-Processor Chip - between that Chip and the X-Port). They all look the
>same and stand out. I replaced these with 1mH miniature Chokes (14 Ohm
>DCR). These Chokes have a self-resonance of around 1MHz (my ones came from
>Maplin). They look like large resistors. Now 1MHz is not enough for us. We
>need to extend the effectiveness here to much higher frequencies. Enter
>three small Ferrite-Beads each (sold in bags of 10 for pennies). These are
>threaded onto the leads of the Choke, usefully extending the effectiveness
>to very high frequencies.
Now we are talking !
>As mentioned before, the Capacitors used by Marantz in the digital section
>are also nothing to write home about. So out go C126 (small board attached
>to the X-Port),
>C157, C114, C120, CF02 (all 47uF 16V), to be replaced with Nichicon PL
>Series ultra low ESR Types. I suggest to use 100uF 50Volt (my ones are from
>Maplin). Alternatives are Panasonic HFQ (sold in the States by Digi-Key -
>unavailable in the UK). Elna RSH should work too. Please do not use
>"Super-low-Z " units (like the Panasonic FA Series).
>
>All of these have small ceramic bypass units on the Board. I did solder
>100nF 50Volt X7R 1206 Surface Mount Capacitors across them below the Board.
>Some where also placed closer to the IC-Pin, but that is again very
>delicate.
>
>Similar configuration where used around the DAC. I replaced CD04, CD07 with
>220uF/50Volt Nichicon PL Units. For CD15, CD16 I used 470uF 50Volt. Here I
>removed the original ceramics (CD04, CD06, CD12, CD13) in order to place my
>100nF SMD Caps as close to the Pin's of the DAC as possible. Again,
>soldering these SMD Units is a tricky job. Steady hands and a small
>Soldering iron are a must.
>
>DO NOT REMOVE ANY OF THE ORIGINAL CERAMICS UNLESS YOU REPLACE THEM!!
>
>Having modelled this PSU-Decoupling arrangement in PSpice (thanX to Guido
>for supplying me with data on the R & L values for Ferrite beads) it seems
>that the suppression of RF-Hash from this arrangements is about 40db more
>effective than the original Circuit. Traces observed on the 'scope are
>clean.
That's a good perception, it matches with most of my measurements
>I think I have to stop here today. Next time around, we deal with Main
>Power-supply and some more magic parts and Ceramic SMD-Caps. Seems my
>original trilogy turns into a veritable Soap Opera.
Good peace of work (in the end, the start of your mail raised my hairs....)
>Til then, have fun soldering.
Yep. Have a nice little mod in my head for this weekend, keep you informed
Guido
>Kind regards Thorsten.
>
>======================================
>e-mail:
>Torsten.Loesch@enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk
>
>Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herin
>are my personal ones and do not in any
>way reflect opinions or policies of my
>employer.
>
>web-pages:
>http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~tloesh_2
>======================================
>
>
>
" 640K ought to be enough for anybody" , Bill Gates, 1981
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herin are my personal ones and do not in
any way reflect opinions or policies of my employer.
Guido Tent
Engineer Electro Magnetic Compatibility
Philips Semiconductors Systems Laboratory Eindhoven (PS-SLE)
Building BE303, (Hurksestraat 19)
P.O.Box 218, 5600MD Eindhoven, The Netherlands
Phone: +31-40-27 24553
fax : +31-40-27 22764
- - Let's make things better ! -
E-mail: guido.tent@ehv. sc.philips.com
Seri : gtent@nlsce1
=========================================================================
From: "Frank Deutschmann" <fdeutsch@bfm.com>
Subject: Re: Improvements to the CD-63/7 (and the bit goes on...)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:15:28 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n022
On Sep 12, 9:08am, Guido Tent wrote:
> >So here goes. First of all, the CD-Player uses a Ground-plane (split
> >between digital and analog). That is good.
>
> It is NOT GOOD. Where are the plains going to meet, and what is going to
> happen there ?
It IS GOOD. The planes will meet at a zero (or very, very low) current node on
each plane, thus keeping the very rapidly changing and large digital currents
seperate from the small and sensitive analog currents.
> Keep control over your currents, and use ONE plane. Digital ground and
> analog ground do not exist. It is one and only same reference that you have.
There are indeed two different "grounds", though ground is the wrong word.
Think of the ground as both supply return and reference; in that light, it
becomes very apparent why there is a very real benefit to seperate grounds in a
mixed signal environment. In fact, it is just a (rather small) extension of
hierarchial star grounding, or keeping the large ground currents seperate from
the small ground currents. Net-net, we keep currents in a different circuit
from causing I^2R potential changes in other reference points.
> Shielding onl reduces the local electrical radiation above let me say 300
> MHz (yes a pentium radiates there, a CD player not so much anymore (if
> properly designed). It does not change or improve the current distribution
> on the PCB
This is a major fallacy; clock rate has little to do with EMI radiation! Yes,
a higher clock rate circuit will typically radiate at higher frequencies, but
this is not a requirement; the important thing to realize is that even very low
clock rate digital circuits can radiate at very, very high frequencies. Why is
this so? Because EMI radiation is goverened by *rise*time* NOT clock rate. As
rise time tyoically is faster for high clock rate circuits, this gives a
percieved increase in EMI with high clock rate circuits. But it is important
to realize the rise time conection, so that we can see that low clock rates can
radiate just as badly. (Or worse, actually, as many circuit designers fall
into the "slow clock rate therefore low emissions" trap.)
I actually learned this lesson the very hard way about 15 years ago; I was
designing a custom ECL processor completely from scratch (DIY processor, from
discrete logic). Well, I set it up, and there were big problems at 100MHz.
So, turn down the clock to 10MHz -- that should fix the problems. Nope. The
problem was the wicked rise time of Motorola 10KH MECL (necessary to support
100MHz+ clock rates, though). Redesign with solid *analog* RF techniques cured
the problems....
In short, fast or slow clock rates are virtually irrelevant; what matters is
the rise time (switching speed) of the logic family you are cursed with using.
Of course, inasmuchas fast clock rates demand fast rise time, fast clock rates
guarantee close attention to EMI issues. But what is often overlooked is that
slow clocked circuits can be EMI problematical, too -- especially if built with
overly fast logic famillies.
- -frank
=========================================================================
From: Grego Sanguinetti <grego@latticesemi.com>
Subject: Re: Improvements to the CD-63/7 (and the bit goes on...)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:11:59 -0700 (PDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n022
On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Frank Deutschmann wrote:
> On Sep 12, 9:08am, Guido Tent wrote:
> > >So here goes. First of all, the CD-Player uses a Ground-plane (split
> > >between digital and analog). That is good.
> >
> > It is NOT GOOD. Where are the plains going to meet, and what is going to
> > happen there ?
>
> It IS GOOD. The planes will meet at a zero (or very, very low) current node on
> each plane, thus keeping the very rapidly changing and large digital currents
> seperate from the small and sensitive analog currents.
Yes GOOD, very good. We design alot of mixed signal IC's and have many, many
different ground circuits that Kelvin together at various places according to
the design. This is old practice. We did that in the IC lab at Tektronics when
I was there in the early 80s with "dirty" grounds and "clean" grounds.
I am looking at a part right now that has just about every form of digital,
linear and mixed signal construct I can think of on the same part, plus
high voltage digital control circuits just to make things interesting.
Many "digital" ICs have a different ground circuit for the IO cells so that
the core won't see "gound bounce" when the big output buffers all switch
at the same time. In this case we are doing it specifically to "control
our currents" as you say. The outputs hammer the source pretty hard, especially
for us poor guys who run with heavily pumped substrates for extra speed and
high voltage on board.
And I am constantly dealing with the darn CAD tools that insist that there
is only one ground, we have to fool them B^)
- -grego
=========================================================================
From: Guido Tent <gtent@ehv.sc.philips.com>
Subject: Re: Improvements to the CD-63/7 (and the bit goes on...)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:49:17 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n024
At 15:15 12-09-97 -0400, Frank Deutschmann wrote:
>On Sep 12, 9:08am, Guido Tent wrote:
>> >So here goes. First of all, the CD-Player uses a Ground-plane (split
>> >between digital and analog). That is good.
>>
>> It is NOT GOOD. Where are the plains going to meet, and what is going to
>> happen there ?
>
>It IS GOOD. The planes will meet at a zero (or very, very low) current node on
>each plane, thus keeping the very rapidly changing and large digital currents
>seperate from the small and sensitive analog currents.
If this the case, then one could connect both planes over the whole area
>> Keep control over your currents, and use ONE plane. Digital ground and
>> analog ground do not exist. It is one and only same reference that you have.
>
>There are indeed two different "grounds",
NO
>though ground is the wrong word.
> Think of the ground as both supply return and reference;
I prefer reference, but the whole world uses ground (causing nonsense
discusions about the connection between ground, reference and protective earth)
>in that light, it
>becomes very apparent why there is a very real benefit to seperate grounds in a
>mixed signal environment. In fact, it is just a (rather small) extension of
>hierarchial star grounding,
Which is a bad sollution.......... One should close current loops as fast
as possible, which is not (always) possible when using a star ground (or a
two point reference as Sakuma does, look at the huge yourney that all the
electrons have to make, every time, I feel so sorry for them)
>or keeping the large ground currents seperate from
>the small ground currents. Net-net, we keep currents in a different circuit
>from causing I^2R potential changes in other reference points.
You miss the essence. Its not the dc resistance that hurts you, it is the
self inductance of your reference plane (L*dI/dt)
There will ALWAYS be a current running from left to right, crossing your
connection between your planes, so it is wise to keep the impedance down, by
making one plane. And yes, first of all would be to reduce the net current
from left to right, but there is a limit on that (1 uA to 5 uA), s if you
have solved that, then .....
>> Shielding onl reduces the local electrical radiation above let me say 300
>> MHz (yes a pentium radiates there, a CD player not so much anymore (if
>> properly designed). It does not change or improve the current distribution
>> on the PCB
>
>This is a major fallacy;
The above stated is true, your remark (which has little to do with
screening) also holds:
>clock rate has little to do with EMI radiation! Yes,
>a higher clock rate circuit will typically radiate at higher frequencies, but
>this is not a requirement;
Yes it is (due to the fact that the impedance of the reference plane rises
with frequency)
>the important thing to realize is that even very low
>clock rate digital circuits can radiate at very, very high frequencies. Why is
>this so? Because EMI radiation is goverened by *rise*time* NOT clock rate. As
>rise time tyoically is faster for high clock rate circuits, this gives a
>percieved increase in EMI with high clock rate circuits. But it is important
>to realize the rise time conection, so that we can see that low clock rates can
>radiate just as badly. (Or worse, actually, as many circuit designers fall
>into the "slow clock rate therefore low emissions" trap.)
Rise and fall times are of utmost importance (so you should keep the
bandwidth as lo as possible) but believe me that the fundamentals (and in 90
% the 3rd harmonic) are the biggest in amplitude (as can be simply derived
form an FFT)
>I actually learned this lesson the very hard way about 15 years ago; I was
>designing a custom ECL processor completely from scratch (DIY processor, from
>discrete logic). Well, I set it up, and there were big problems at 100MHz.
> So, turn down the clock to 10MHz -- that should fix the problems. Nope. The
>problem was the wicked rise time of Motorola 10KH MECL (necessary to support
>100MHz+ clock rates, though). Redesign with solid *analog* RF techniques cured
>the problems....
>
>In short, fast or slow clock rates are virtually irrelevant; what matters is
>the rise time (switching speed) of the logic family you are cursed with using.
I agree if you state "what matters too"
> Of course, inasmuchas fast clock rates demand fast rise time, fast clock rates
>guarantee close attention to EMI issues. But what is often overlooked is that
>slow clocked circuits can be EMI problematical, too -- especially if built with
>overly fast logic famillies.
Yes
Have fun !
Guido
>-frank
>
>
" 640K ought to be enough for anybody" , Bill Gates, 1981
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herin are my personal ones and do not in
any way reflect opinions or policies of my employer.
Guido Tent
Engineer Electro Magnetic Compatibility
Philips Semiconductors Systems Laboratory Eindhoven (PS-SLE)
Building BE303, (Hurksestraat 19)
P.O.Box 218, 5600MD Eindhoven, The Netherlands
Phone: +31-40-27 24553
fax : +31-40-27 22764
- - Let's make things better ! -
E-mail: guido.tent@ehv. sc.philips.com
Seri : gtent@nlsce1
=========================================================================
From: "Thorsten \"EZEE\" Loesch" <tloesh_2@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Improvements to the CD-63/7.. (the 2nd)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 22:11:12 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n017
Simple Electronic Improvements to the CD-53/63/63SE/63KIS/57/67/67SE
Given the Price-point the CD-63/67 Series sells, it is unavoidable that the
electronic part of the Unit will be subject to some cost-cutting. On closer
inspection of my CD-67 SE I found that there where any number of things I
would have liked to see, but didn't.
For the CD-63/67 there are a number of small Part's upgrades that can be
done. Some of things I will mention simply bring the unit in line with the
SE-Model, others do go beyond the original.
First of all, Marantz uses a pair of JRC sourced 2114 Op-Amp in the Filter
Stage of the CD-Player. This is followed by a one discrete Buffer Circuit
per Channel, called for no particular reason HDAM (Hyper Dynamic Amp
Modules) The CD-57 does omit these Buffers (and the optical digital
output), but seems otherwise identical to the CD-67. I think the same holds
true for the CD-53. I will not reveal Marantz'es "secret" HDAM Circuit. Buy
a Manual and it is all covered. So anyone owning a CD-57 can upgrade the
Unit easily with this circuitry.
As said Marantz uses the JRC 2114 Op-Amp, not really that bad a unit. They
use the same Op-Amp in the CD-17 (but not the CD-17 KI Signature if I read
correct). In the end of the Day however, the 2114 is little more than a
pepped up NE5532. I'd say out with it.
Many People have used (and reported good results) using the Burr Brown
OPA-2604 Op-Amp. This is quite a nice Device, comes in at under $5.00 each
and makes for a much superior replacement for NE-5532/OP-27 Style Chips in
Line-Level applications. Other Chips worthwhile are the OP-275 from Analog
Devices and the AD-827.
I personally prefer the LM6172 from National Semiconductor over all the
others. It is a Voltage Feedback Op-Amp which is build fully symmetrical
for the + and - half, has extremely low distortion (THD + N at 2 Volt P-P
into 100 Ohm, 10kHz is below -100db), extremely Wide Bandwidth (100MHz
Unity Gain) and can drive about anything (it is designed to drive over 16
Volt P-P into 100 Ohm). Noise is comparable to most decent Op-Amps (about
10nV sqrt Hz).
A bit more care must be taken with the Power-Supply when using this Part,
but I fell the Performance is very well worth it.
Currently no-one in the UK seems to carry this Unit (I got mine as
engineering Samples from Nat Semi - ThanX Guys), but apparently Digi-Key
sells them in the States. This Unit is more expensive that most possible
replacements, but MUCH better sound. I came across them in the context of
Modifications to ADAT Recorders (Digital 8-Track units recording on
Video-Tape - neat).
With all this Palaver finished, unsolder the old Op-Amps and put the new
ones (whichever you choose) in. If you have a CD-67 SE from the same
Production run as I do, the PSU Capacitors associated with these Op-Amp's
will be Elna "Starget" ones. They have a metallic red sleeve. These are
good ones, leave them where they are. The Service manual actually specifies
standard Units here, so chances are You have a cheap'n nasty Cap here.
Replace with your most liked flavour of High Quality Audio Capacitor (Elna
Starget, Black Gate, Sanyo SG Series OS-Con, Nichicon Muse...). The
Circuit-board denominators are C611,612,613,614. They are 100uF, much
larger will not make much of difference (IMHO).
Regardless of whatever exotic Cap I use, I always stick a 10-22nF
polypropylene bypass Cap across it. How I do this depends on the Layout of
the Unit. In the Marantz they ended up directly across the electrolytic
Cap's on the Solder-side of the Board. I use the small WIMA ones.
Next stop should be the Filter capacitors. In the CD-57 they are Ceramic,
in the 67 and 67SE they are Mylar.
The Circuit-board denominators are CD21, CD22, CD23, CD24 (120pF); C605,
C606(1000pF) and C607, C608 (100pF). I did replace them all with Philips 1%
Polystyrene Capacitors.
Last in line is the Output Circuit. In the CD-57 this is simple as no
HDAM-Buffer is used. You will find two electrolytic Capacitors
"back-2-back" per Channel. These are C655, C656, C657, C658. In the
SE-Models (and KI-Sig) they are Elna "Silmic" 220uF units. The CD-57 and 67
use standard units. They do not block any (significant) DC and I consider
them safe to remove. Just unsolder them and replace with a piece of wire.
In my Case, I had the CD-67 SE and the benefit of the "Silmic" Cap's, so
what do we do with them? I used them to replace the Output Buffers
PSU-Capacitors (C651, C652, C653, C654) and again also bypassed them with
22nF WIMA Polypropylene.
Lastly the Circuit uses two Transistors to Mute the Player on Power-up.
This is not such a nice Idea if You ask me. Just unsolder QN05, QN06, QN07,
QN08. You may however want to hang on to them, as some fellow Inter-netter
disliked what removing the Muting Transistors did to his Pioneer Player.
I did also replace the Output Jacks with something better (the Originals
have the Ground gilded but the Signal).
This concludes the Audio Part of this Voyage. The next part will deal with
the PSU and the digital bits. Stay tuned.
Kind regards Thorsten.
PS.: Usual disclaimer applies, YMMV (Your milage may vary).
======================================
e-mail:
Torsten.Loesch@enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herin
are my personal ones and do not in any
way reflect opinions or policies of my
employer.
web-pages:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~tloesh_2
======================================
=========================================================================
From: ldmo@cbmaila.cb.lucent.com
Subject: In CA this week
Date: 16 Feb 98 15:26:00 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n194
Gang:
I will be in Santa Rosa, CA at HP's microwave instrument division on
business Thursday through Sunday if anyone would like to hook up.
L.D. Moore
=========================================================================
From: Rhthatcher@ra.rockwell.com
Subject: indicator tubes
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 18:04:24 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n128
i heard there was a glass audio article on using indicator tubes in audio
circuits... does anyone know what issue? i'm thinking of using the
following:
EM84/6FG6 - side indicator
6AF6 - magic eye
the magic eye may be level or for power on. who knows... any ideas how to
show audio level?
also, where might i get data sheets on the net?
=========================================================================
From: John Levreault <jlevro@shore.net>
Subject: Re: indicator tubes
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 10:57:05 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n128
At 06:04 PM 12/6/97 -0500, Rhthatcher@ra.rockwell.com wrote:
>
>
>
>i heard there was a glass audio article on using indicator tubes in audio
>circuits... does anyone know what issue?
"Peak Reading Level Meter Using Indicator Tubes" by Jukka Tolonen, GA 2/95.
=========================================================================
From: Dale.Simon@ps.net
Subject: Re: indicator tubes
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:41:00 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n128
- ------ =_WT21703.348c357b.0a0/dcuh029.dcu.ps.net
The article is in Volume 9 1997. The amp is an SV811-10 and the indicator
tube is a 6AL7. It is used to indicate when a signal is playing. I
haven't read the article though. I get the impression it was added only
for asthetics.
Dale
i heard there was a glass audio article on using indicator tubes in audio
circuits... does anyone know what issue? i'm thinking of using the
following:
EM84/6FG6 - side indicator
6AF6 - magic eye
the magic eye may be level or for power on. who knows... any ideas how to
show audio level?
also, where might i get data sheets on the net?
- ------ =_WT21703.348c357b.0a0/dcuh029.dcu.ps.net
<Zero length text item>
- ------ =_WT21703.348c357b.0a0/dcuh029.dcu.ps.net--
=========================================================================
From: "Martin E. von Lindenberg" <mvon@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Indirectly heated triode sonic qualities v. heater voltages
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 17:37:29 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n146
Happy Holidays, All --
A perhaps not so simple question, as we scramble to use what's available --
using indirectly heated triodes, have there been audible differences
between different voltage models of the same tube, such as 6SN7 and 12SN7?
And, if so, is the difference due to increased AC heater voltage, and can
this be alleviated by regulated DC heater supplies? And lastly, is any
difference proportional the amount of increased heater voltage?
All of this is by way of noting that AES has a dirt cheap sale on
dissimilar dual triodes at weird voltages.
TIA
Martin
mvon@erols.com
=========================================================================
From: An-shyang Chu <achu@sandia.gov>
Subject: inductance of filament transformer
Date: 16 Apr 1998 14:49:56 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n254
Hi Joes,
Can someone tell me real quick what the inductances are for a typical filament
tranformer? I have measured ~19mHy on the secondary (i.e. 5V tap) , but got
5.8Hy on the primary side (i.e. 120V side)??? Is this right? This is measred
with 100 hz signal. Thanks!
hopper
=========================================================================
From: Rhthatcher@ra.rockwell.com
Subject: I need 4 EL34's
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 09:45:16 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n150
Does anyone have 4 reasonably priced EL34's to part with? I don't need
anything esoteric, just something to put in a slightly modded ST-70 i got.
Also, thanks to all who gave me suggestions on stuff to do in Ontario. too
bad i was stuck in a damn plant too long to go anywhere...
randy
=========================================================================
From: Ron Steinberg <ca789@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
Subject: Re: I need 4 EL34's
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 12:02:38 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n151
Randy, I've been using Svetlana's in my amp, but have had way to many of
them go bad, 3 out of 4! I'm currently using the Sovtek's, so far so
good. I'd recommend them, and they're pretty cheap. Try Parts Connection.
Ron
On Mon, 5 Jan 1998 Rhthatcher@ra.rockwell.com wrote:
>
> Does anyone have 4 reasonably priced EL34's to part with? I don't need
> anything esoteric, just something to put in a slightly modded ST-70 i got.
>
> Also, thanks to all who gave me suggestions on stuff to do in Ontario. too
> bad i was stuck in a damn plant too long to go anywhere...
>
>
> randy
>
>
>
======================================================================
Ron Steinberg Photographer <ca789@torfree.net>
Though self employed, my opinions do not reflect those of my employer.
======================================================================
=========================================================================
From: "dehls" <dehls@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: I need 4 EL34's
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:33:14 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n152
Randy,
I've had great luck with Tesla EL34's in a variety of amps. Also,
don't discount
the Chinese EL34's if _and only if_ you buy them from someone that
burns them
in and then uses a curve tracer to weed out the bad ones and match
them up.
I've had 2 matched pairs in a Stereo 70 for some time with no sign of
trouble
and good results sonically. All, of course, IMHO ;^)
Take Care,
David
- ----------
> On Mon, 5 Jan 1998 Rhthatcher@ra.rockwell.com wrote:
>
> >
> > Does anyone have 4 reasonably priced EL34's to part with? I
don't need
> > anything esoteric, just something to put in a slightly modded
ST-70 i got.
> >
> > Also, thanks to all who gave me suggestions on stuff to do in
Ontario. too
> > bad i was stuck in a damn plant too long to go anywhere...
> >
> >
> > randy
> >
> >
> >
>
=========================================================================
From: Dan Kerl <dlkerl@ro.com>
Subject: Re: I need 4 EL34's
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 13:25:07 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n153
dehls wrote:
>
> I've had great luck with Tesla EL34's in a variety of amps. Also, don't discount
> the Chinese EL34's if _and only if_ you buy them from someone that burns them
> in and then uses a curve tracer to weed out the bad ones and match them up.
> I've had 2 matched pairs in a Stereo 70 for some time with no sign of trouble
> and good results sonically. All, of course, IMHO ;^)
I've had luck ordering Tesla EL34s from Losconi in Vienna. YMMV.
http://www.foundmark.com/ComJute/LOSCONI/Losconi.html
Surface shipment to US for ten pieces plus some tube sockets ran around 20 bucks,
taking around 6 weeks. I'm contemplating getting some of the KT88s, since the
prices are reasonable enough to justify experimentation. He has a 4.2% surcharge
for credit card usage.
Unrelated question:
Has Svetlana announced a date for the 7591s?
- --
Dan Kerl
dlkerl@ro.com
=========================================================================
From: "dehls" <dehls@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: I need 4 EL34's
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 19:10:25 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n154
You should also check out QuicksilverAudio for Tesla (and a variety
of other tubes) at http://www.quicksilveraudio.com
David
*Disclaimer: Mike Sanders is a good friend, but I receive no monetary
remuneration from Quicksilver
- ----------
> From: Dan Kerl <dlkerl@ro.com>
> To: sound@deliverator.io.com
> Subject: Re: I need 4 EL34's
> Date: Tuesday, January 06, 1998 11:25 AM
>
> dehls wrote:
> >
> > I've had great luck with Tesla EL34's in a variety of amps. Also,
don't discount
> > the Chinese EL34's if _and only if_ you buy them from someone
that burns them
> > in and then uses a curve tracer to weed out the bad ones and
match them up.
> > I've had 2 matched pairs in a Stereo 70 for some time with no
sign of trouble
> > and good results sonically. All, of course, IMHO ;^)
>
> I've had luck ordering Tesla EL34s from Losconi in Vienna. YMMV.
>
> http://www.foundmark.com/ComJute/LOSCONI/Losconi.html
>
> Surface shipment to US for ten pieces plus some tube sockets ran
around 20 bucks,
> taking around 6 weeks. I'm contemplating getting some of the
KT88s, since the
> prices are reasonable enough to justify experimentation. He has a
4.2% surcharge
> for credit card usage.
>
> Unrelated question:
>
> Has Svetlana announced a date for the 7591s?
> --
> Dan Kerl
> dlkerl@ro.com
=========================================================================
From: RALPH POWER <POWER.RALPH@epamail.epa.gov>
Subject: I need 4 EL34's -Reply
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 09:43:57 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n154
Hi All,
I might suggest Triode Electronics for good prices and good service.
Ned has matched pairs of Tesla EL34Ls for $24.95 and some NOS tubes.
Triode Electronics is at : http://209.75.12.32/
Also his site is way cool with tube data, schematics, construction hints, etc..
FWIW,
- Ralph
=========================================================================
From: "Lynn T. Olson" <lynno@teleport.com>
Subject: Inexpensive but interesting SE 2A3 and 300B amps from Japan
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 01:11:09 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n058
Check out the following URL:
http://www.icl.co.jp/audio/english/
Before you dismiss the 6SH7 pentode driving a MOSFET driving a 2A3/300B
circuit out of hand, consider that each device is being used in a way that
delivers near-optimum performance. And the price ... US$570 for a stereo
2A3 amplifier, and US$750 for the stereo 300B amplifier, both models sold
ready-to-go with tubes. Certainly looks interesting for that second system,
or folks just getting into triodes for the first time.
Lynn T. Olson
E-mail: lynno@teleport.com
Web: http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/Ariel.htm
Editor, Valve & Tube News, and Associate Editor, Positive Feedback Magazine
=========================================================================
From: Guido Tent <gtent@ehv.sc.philips.com>
Subject: Re: Inexpensive but interesting SE 2A3 and 300B amps from Japan
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 17:05:01 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n058
Lynn,
Thanks for the URL. Allthough it may be fun to have a real poor mans Ongaku
(RPMO), I still think that it's going to take a lot of money to squeeze
everything out of the 300b, and oh there is so much inside (a good one)
So invest in a good OPTX, and play around with drivers, power supplies etc
I am very familiar with the FET sollution as a follower, allthough it lacks
exactly the same problems as a cathode follower
Keep up the good work
Guido
" 640K ought to be enough for anybody" , Bill Gates, 1981
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herin are my personal ones and do not in
any way reflect opinions or policies of my employer.
Guido Tent
Engineer Electro Magnetic Compatibility
Philips Semiconductors Systems Laboratory Eindhoven (PS-SLE)
Building BE303, (Hurksestraat 19)
P.O.Box 218, 5600MD Eindhoven, The Netherlands
Phone: +31-40-27 24553
fax : +31-40-27 22764
- - Let's make things better ! -
E-mail: guido.tent@ehv. sc.philips.com
Seri : gtent@nlsce1
=========================================================================
From: "Bottlehead" <Bottlehead@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: Inexpensive but interesting SE 2A3 and 300B amps from Japan
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 08:27:21 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n059
And the price ... US$570 for a stereo
> 2A3 amplifier, and US$750 for the stereo 300B amplifier, both models sold
> ready-to-go with tubes. Certainly looks interesting for that second
system,
> or folks just getting into triodes for the first time.
Um, plus $130 for shipping. They do indeed look very interesting, it's just
that I'm still smarting from shipping over ($$$!) those Sun amps.
Doc B.
=========================================================================
From: "Brian Cross" <cros1605@together.net>
Subject: infinate baffles...
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 01:16:35 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n176
just a random thought... i was staring at the little mcm 5" alums, as i
finish up my hyperwam's and i rember seeing a picture of pair of small 5"s
or 4"s on a baffle in one of doc's pictures... does anybody feel like
lending the rule of thumb for designing a baffle or is it just a
personal/subjective experience for taking a innocent board and changing its
goal in life to something more useable.
- -bac
=========================================================================
From: "Danielak, Robert M" <robert.m.danielak@lmco.com>
Subject: infinity sm105/85
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:55:56 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n226
hi guys,
just thumbed thru a crotchfield catalog and was suprised by these.
infinity sm105: 8ohm, 100dB eff. !!!!, 35-20k $299
even the smaller sm85 is 98dB, 42-27k, $199.
is this too good to be true???
any personal experience out there?
btw: these are two ways with 1" dome tweet
and 10" or 8" woof, respectively.
tia,
bob.d.
=========================================================================
From: Paolo Del Giusto <paolo.delgiusto@studioidea.it>
Subject: info about IC CA225
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:37:03 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n574
Hi all,
maybe someone could help me identificating this IC, the CA225. It si used
to drive the final mosfets in some Hafler designs, but I cannot find any
information about it.
Thanks in advance
- ------------------------------------------
- ------------Paolo Del Giusto--------------
- ------------------------------------------
- ------paolo.delgiusto@studioidea.it-------
- ------------------------------------------
- ----paolo.delgiusto@elettra.trieste.it----
- ------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
From: "alfred trower" <sedht@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Info Needed 16 ohm BASS drivers any 5-6.5
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:45:42 PST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n197
Hi Gang,
J. Gordon Rankin posed the query:
>
>Anyone knwo of any 16 ohm 5-6.5" BASS drivers and where I might find
them?
>
Focal makes a series of dual VC drivers that put out halfway decent bass
for their size. If the coils are wired in series, you get 16 ohms,
parallel you get 4. You can check out :
http://www.zalytron.com
http://www.itis.com/madisound
http://www.speakercity.com
The TS parameters listed are for parallel coils. You'd probably have to
contact focal or order in one of the drivers and measure it yourself to
find out the series TS paramters.
Hope this helps,
Al
Alfred Trower
Consultant, Client/Server Systems
Supply Chain Specialist
- ----------------------------------
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to
those who cannot fly." Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
From: "J. Gordon Rankin" <waudio@cinti.net>
Subject: Info Needed 16 ohm BASS drivers any 5-6.5"???
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 98 11:24:36 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n197
Gang,
Anyone knwo of any 16 ohm 5-6.5" BASS drivers and where I might find them?
Thanks in advance!
Gordon
=======> Wavelength Audio <=======
mailto:waudio@cinti.net
http://www.wavelengthaudio.com
ph.fx. 513-271-4186 USA
=========================================================================
From: Michael Ulbrich <mul@lab1033.berlin.ptb.de>
Subject: Info needed: Klipsch Cornwall
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:06:56 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n205
Hi Joes,
I was offered a pair of Klipsch Cornwall speakers. Don't know anything
about'em except that they are almost fridge sized and were bought in the
late 70's. As it is a Klipsch product I would expect some high-eff horn
stuff.
Any further comments would be greatly appreciated.
TIA ... Michael U.
=========================================================================
From: Kalman Rubinson <rubinsnk@is2.nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: Info needed: Klipsch Cornwall
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:19:34 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n206
On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Michael Ulbrich wrote:
> I was offered a pair of Klipsch Cornwall speakers. Don't know anything
> about'em except that they are almost fridge sized and were bought in the
> late 70's. As it is a Klipsch product I would expect some high-eff horn
> stuff.
"Drivers are the same as in the Klipschorn but the bass driver is not
horn-loaded. A less efficient port system is used."
Kal
=========================================================================
From: Tom Suit <tsuit@UU.NET>
Subject: Re: Info needed: Klipsch Cornwall
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 12:01:46 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n206
At 10:19 AM 3/3/98 -0500, Kalman Rubinson wrote:
>On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Michael Ulbrich wrote:
>
>> I was offered a pair of Klipsch Cornwall speakers. Don't know anything
>> about'em except that they are almost fridge sized and were bought in the
>> late 70's. As it is a Klipsch product I would expect some high-eff horn
>> stuff.
>
>"Drivers are the same as in the Klipschorn but the bass driver is not
>horn-loaded. A less efficient port system is used."
>
>Kal
According to the Klipsch literature I have, the Cornwall has a sensitivity
of 101 db/W/M, and looks sorta flat from 50 to 20k. There used to be
the "Unofficial Klipsch Cornwall" page out there but it doesn't seem to
be there any more.
-Tom
=========================================================================
From: torgd@tolstoy.lerc.nasa.gov (Russell DeAnna)
Subject: Re: Info needed: Klipsch Cornwall
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:39:49 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n206
> I was offered a pair of Klipsch Cornwall speakers. Don't know anything
> about'em except that they are almost fridge sized and were bought in the
> late 70's. As it is a Klipsch product I would expect some high-eff horn
I use 'em in the main system. I coated the mid horn with driveway
sealant and replaced the stock inductor with a 14-gauge air core.
Also did some other minor moods like cutting out the screans in front
of the compression drivers and moving the crossover components to the
outside back of the cabinet.
They image very well. They are very efficient. Maybe weak on low-
level detail. Weak on low bass with a tube amp. Overall, a damn
good speaker for anything under $1k. I paid $550.
- -Russell
=========================================================================
From: "Robert B. Lemker" <rblemker@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: Info needed: Klipsch Cornwall
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:39:15 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n207
>> I was offered a pair of Klipsch Cornwall speakers. Don't know anything
>> about'em except that they are almost fridge sized and were bought in the
>> late 70's. As it is a Klipsch product I would expect some high-eff horn
I'm using two pair stacked for my main system. I think there're a excellent
speaker for under $600. I've applied a simple mod to the x-over to keep the
mid-range horns from going past 6,000hz. Also make sure you elevate the
units to get the mid-range horn at or slightly above ear level when seated
in your favorite listening chair. BTW, the older units have the tweeter and
squawker mounted vertically which improves imaging. If you find any of
these units, let me know.
Bob
=========================================================================
From: ROBERT ROSENTHAL <RBTR@mail.rkd.snds.com>
Subject: info needed on Jackson model 637 tube tester
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 17:28:11 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n018
info needed on Jackson model 637 Dynamic Output tube tester;
does anyone know if this is an emission or mutual conductance tester,
and what it might be worth in good condition?
Thanks - Robert RBTR@SNDS.COM
=========================================================================
From: "T. Loesch" <ezee_e@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Info on 300B types?
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 03:38:16 PST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n565
Hi there,
>I am thinking of chinese types such as Billington Gold or maybe
>the new Swetlana types. Does anybody have any info about sound
>and durabillity of these types?
I have been using a set of Svetlana's for a few weeks now. First of all,
the Svetlana's sound a lot better than the Sovtek or Chinese (Golden
Dragon) ones.... (Yes, we did try).
They appear excellently made and look like they should last. I have not
been running them for that long, so no direct info on lifetime yet. But
I am certainly past the 300 h Mark....
Kind regards Thorsten.
======================================
e-mail:
Thorsten@tnt-audio.com
Visit TNT-Audio on the Web - the only advertising
free audio web-zine.
http://www.tnt-audio.com
======================================
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
From: Bob Chernofsky <bobc@cwix.com>
Subject: Re: Info on 300B types?
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 08:15:06 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n565
- -----Original Message-----
From: Sune Frost-Olsen <sune@post5.tele.dk>
To: SPlist <sound@deliverator.io.com>
Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 3:21 AM
Subject: Info on 300B types?
>Hi All,
>
>I am soon looking for new tubes to my 300B PSE. I have been using Sovtek
300B types but one of them only lasted 300 hours!!!
>
>I am thinking of chinese types such as Billington Gold or maybe the new
Swetlana types. Does anybody have any info about sound and durabillity of
these types?
>
>Regards,
>Sune
I would recommend going with the Svetlana 300Bs. I have been using them for
several months and I am very impressed by them. They are very close to WE
300B in sound quality, very clean top to bottom. They look very well made,
and should last a long time.
Good luck
Bob
=========================================================================
From: "Sune Frost-Olsen" <sune@post5.tele.dk>
Subject: Info on 300B types?
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 08:57:24 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n565
Hi All,
I am soon looking for new tubes to my 300B PSE. I have been using Sovtek 300B types but one of them
only lasted 300 hours!!!
I am thinking of chinese types such as Billington Gold or maybe the new Swetlana types. Does anybody
have any info about sound and durabillity of these types?
Regards,
Sune
_______________________________________
SFO Denmark
sune@post5.tele.dk
=========================================================================
From: Steve Berger <aprilsound@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Info on 300B types?
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 10:15:01 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n565
Hi All:
I also have been running a pair in my shop system.
Of the traditional 300-Bs, they sound to me to be the closest thing to
westerns that I have heard.
- --
Steve Berger <http://home.earthlink.net/~aprilsound/>
=========================================================================
From: davidbarnett@aristotle.net (David Barnett)
Subject: Re: Info on 300B types?
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 08:03:03 GMT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n565
On Sun, 10 Jan 1999 10:57:41 +0800, "Johari Yip"
<hfyip@pacific.net.sg> wrote:
>You have make no reference to which 300B you're talking
>about.
But he was replying to a message about Svetlana 300Bs, so by
implication....
- --dnb
=========================================================================
From: "Johari Yip" <hfyip@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: Info on 300B types?
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 10:57:41 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n565
- ----------
> From: Steve Berger <aprilsound@earthlink.net>
> To: sound@deliverator.io.com
> Cc: Sune Frost-Olsen <sune@post5.tele.dk>; SPlist
<sound@deliverator.io.com>
> Subject: Re: Info on 300B types?
> Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 11:15 PM
>
> Hi All:
> I also have been running a pair in my shop system.
> Of the traditional 300-Bs, they sound to me to be the closest thing to
> westerns that I have heard.
>
> --
> Steve Berger <http://home.earthlink.net/~aprilsound/>
>
I'm sorry, Steve. You have make no reference to which 300B you're talking
about.
Johari
=========================================================================
From: "Richard A. Francis" <rfranci@uoft03.utoledo.edu>
Subject: Info on 307-A (VT-225)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 16:01:46 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n553
Anyone got info on this tube? Looks interesting...
I think I'm about cleaned out of octal damper diodes. If you want to mess
with 6CD6, 6CU6, 6DQ6, or similar horizontal amp/beam power amp tube, I
have good used and new.
Rick
=========================================================================
From: Andrej Deticek <andrej.deticek@siol.net>
Subject: Re: Info on 307-A (VT-225)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 23:30:49 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n553
"Richard A. Francis" wrote:
>
> Anyone got info on this tube? Looks interesting...
>
Tube 307-A is a heating-filamentary moderate power suppressor-grid
pentode.
Base: medium five-pin base with bayonet pin. Small metal cap plate
terminal on top.
Ef = 5.5V
If = 1 A
Eb max = 500 V
Ib = 40 mA
Gm = 4000 umhos
Rp = 30 KOhm
Pout= 6 W
P max. diss. = 15 W
Made by WE, Sylvania, Ken-Rad, National Union, similar types Raytheon
RK-75, CV2612, STC 4307A.
Should work great *triode connected* with Ef = 300V max as a linear
audio amplifying (driver or output) tube.
Load of about 5 KOhm should work fine.
Regards,
Andrej Deticek
=========================================================================
From: MHuber@t-online.de (Manfred Huber)
Subject: Re: Info on 307-A (VT-225)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 14:57:01 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n554
Joes,
>Should work great *triode connected* with Ef = 300V max as a linear
>audio amplifying (driver or output) tube.
Not too long ago I have done some plate curves for the 307A
(Raytheon VT-225 to be specific) in triode mode. They are hand drawn
but I think they don t look too bad. If someone is interested please
email me and I will send them over in GIF format (about 200k)
My best wishes for the new year to all of you out there!
Manfred
- ------------------
Manfred Huber
MHuber@t-online.de
- ------------------
=========================================================================
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Torbj=F8rn_Lien?=" <mdrivekl@online.no>
Subject: Re: Info on 307-A (VT-225)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:26:00 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n555
>> > "Richard A. Francis" wrote:
>> >
>> > Anyone got info on this tube? Looks interesting...
>> >
>Andrej Deticek wrote:
>>
>> Tube 307-A is a heating-filamentary moderate power suppressor-grid
>> pentode.
>> Base: medium five-pin base with bayonet pin. Small metal cap plate
>> terminal on top.
>>
>> Ef = 5.5V
>> If = 1 A
>> Eb max = 500 V
>> Ib = 40 mA
>> Gm = 4000 umhos
>> Rp = 30 KOhm
>> Pout= 6 W
>> P max. diss. = 15 W
>>
>> Made by WE, Sylvania, Ken-Rad, National Union, similar types
Raytheon
>> RK-75, CV2612, STC 4307A.
>> Should work great *triode connected* with Ef = 300V max as a linear
>> audio amplifying (driver or output) tube.
>> Load of about 5 KOhm should work fine.
>Manfred Huber wrote:
>
>Not too long ago I have done some plate curves for the 307A
>(Raytheon VT-225 to be specific) in triode mode. They are hand drawn
>but I think they don t look too bad. If someone is interested please
>email me and I will send them over in GIF format (about 200k)
Hi all and a happy new year!
I did the same,-have stocked up and plan to try out
this little sleeping beauty,-only need some spare time...
When I first found this tube I was attracted to its
beautiful guts,-you don't often see a WW (Quadruppel V..)
DH-cathode in a tube of only 15W dissipation. BTW,
someone told me that this tube, as tetrode, initially
was regarded as a "small, quick heated 807".
I drew triode-curves both with supressor grid gnded,
and ctded. to anode. Last option digs out alittle more
transconductance. The curves are quite nice, but slightly
less linear than the 2A3. Normal I'd say, if the higher ĩ
of around 6 is considered. With the gm at around 5mA/V,
Rp is around 1k2,-ofcource, depending on where on the
curves measures are taken.
For those of you who posess the book by Jean Hiraga;
"tube amplifiers" the degree of nonlinearitys of the curves
resembles the ones published on the R120,- a completely
different tube though.
Regards,
Torbjoern Lien
>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Carter Hendricks <carterh@crl.com>
Subject: info on 6ZDH3A
Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 15:52:53 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n211
In poking around the new Sakuma schematics on the DH page I found
one tube which I didn't recognize. OK, more than one. Toshi Miyanaga
graciously sent me more information than I needed to know about the
6ZDH3A.
--Carter
>From: "Toshihiro Miyanaga" (by way of Carter Hendricks <carterh@crl.com>)
>Subject: RE: unusual vacuum tube 6ZDH3A
>
>Hello, Carter
>
>6ZDH3A was a convenntional tube for in Japan in 1950s.
>It was used for IF (455KHz) detection at the diode part and AF
>amplification at the triode part of 6ZDH3A.
>
> Tube size : hight 106 mili meters , diameter 39 mm , glass tube
> ST type
> Filament Ef 6.3 volts, If 0.3 amperes
> Plate (Anode) voltage 250 v,
> Grid Voltage -2 v
> Plate Current 1.1 mA
> Mutual Conductance 1175 micro mhos
> Amplification factor 100
> Base connection 1 Heater 2 Plate (diode)
> 3 Grid(tetorode) 4 Plate (diode)
> 5 Cathode 6 Heater
>
> That's all information which I have now .
> I hope above information would be useful for you.
=========================================================================
From: Rick Francis <rfranci@uoft03.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Info on 8233 tube?
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 12:15:09 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n184
This one's not in the RC-28. Any help appreciated.
Rick Francis, rfranci@uoft03.utoledo.edu
"Ignorance is Bliss, But It's Hard on the Machinery"
=========================================================================
From: Bob Danielak <rdaniela@ew.lmms.lmco.com>
Subject: Re: Info on 8233 tube?
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 13:30:25 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n184
Rick Francis wrote:
>
> This one's not in the RC-28. Any help appreciated.
>
> Rick Francis, rfranci@uoft03.utoledo.edu
>
> "Ignorance is Bliss, But It's Hard on the Machinery"
8233 in equivalent to e55l
funky power pentode in magnoval base
gm=45000uS
i think tom dunker knows a lot about this one
could be a murder weapon ...
bob.d.
=========================================================================
From: Finn Hammer <f-hammer@post5.tele.dk>
Subject: Re: Info on 8233 tube?
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 19:38:36 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n184
Rick Francis wrote:
>
> This one's not in the RC-28. Any help appreciated.
>
> Rick Francis, rfranci@uoft03.utoledo.edu
>
> "Ignorance is Bliss, But It's Hard on the Machinery"
European equivalent:E 55 L
Beautifully linear in triode.
Have 10 different curves, let me know what you need.
finn
- --
HOME OF
Tractrix Horns, Tube Amps,
Fieldcoil Loudspeakers and Computer Graphics
http://home5.inet.tele.dk/f-hammer/
=========================================================================
From: Thomas Dunker <dunker@invalid.ed.unit.no>
Subject: Re: Info on 8233 tube?
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:41:35 +0100 (MET)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n187
On Fri, 6 Feb 1998, Bob Danielak wrote:
> Rick Francis wrote:
> >
> > This one's not in the RC-28. Any help appreciated.
> >
> > Rick Francis, rfranci@uoft03.utoledo.edu
> >
> > "Ignorance is Bliss, But It's Hard on the Machinery"
>
>
> 8233 in equivalent to e55l
>
> funky power pentode in magnoval base
>
> gm=45000uS
>
> i think tom dunker knows a lot about this one
I "know" what I have in the Philips manual (curves, pentode & triode
connection, mu, gm and ri vs Ip, max ratings etc. etc.) 10 pages of
info and 10 different curve sets. It looks like a
killer in triode connection. Torbjoern Lien (who I can't persuade to
join JoeNet now that he has an e-mail address, after he had a traumatic
experience with an unsuccessful attempt to subscribe) and I are playing
with the idea of a super simple 2W E55L SE amp. The triode connected
E55L is a lot like a WE437 or a 3A/167M, but with 10W max plate
dissipation.
I have salvaged a pair of regulated power supplies from Hickok signal
generators that make cut little amp chassis. All I really need are output
transformers. Torbjoern has considered putting the whole OPT primary in
the cathode of the E55L, in which case we get a very low Z stepdown
ratio and an easy to make xformer. OR, part plate and part cathode
loading.
> could be a murder weapon ...
Would be a killer driver tube or line amp too. Need to give it a try some
day. I have seven NOS Mullards.
Tom D.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
_/\_ Thomas Dunker \ The Horn Speaker Home Page:
/ \ P.O.Box 2811 \ http://invalid.ed.unit.no/~dunker/horns.html
| | 7002 Trondheim \
| | NORWAY \------\ "Those with head above water
\____/ dunker@invalid.ed.unit.no \ see only the tip of the iceberg"
|||| phone (+47)73916898 \ (Gene Dalby)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
From: Miguelito <mbarrio@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Info on Black Gate caps???
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:36:12 -0500 (CDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n309
Hi all,
Does anyone have or know how to get info on Back Gate caps?
Thanks!
Miguel
- --
Miguel Barrio "He who knows others is wise.
mailto:miguelito@pobox.com He who knows himself is
http://pobox.com/~miguelito enlightened." -- Laozi
=========================================================================
From: "Owen Young" <oyoung@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Info on Black Gate caps???
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:12:18 -1200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n309
Miguel
I have previously received data shts from Michael Percy (with purchases).
Owen
- ----------
> From: Miguelito <mbarrio@midway.uchicago.edu>
> To: Sound Practices <sound@deliverator.io.com>
> Subject: Info on Black Gate caps???
> Date: 11 June 1998 07:36
>
> Hi all,
>
> Does anyone have or know how to get info on Back Gate caps?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Miguel
>
> --
> Miguel Barrio "He who knows others is wise.
> mailto:miguelito@pobox.com He who knows himself is
> http://pobox.com/~miguelito enlightened." -- Laozi
>
=========================================================================
From: Rimmer deVries <rdevries@ameritech.net>
Subject: Info on EV Drivers?
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 21:24:15 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n297
Hi All:
Does EV have a website or link to historic or classic EV and related
company products. I just found a pair of EV Wolverine LT-10 12"
triaxial drivers and I was wondering if anyone knew anything about
them.. They are pretty nice sounding in a simple folded horn cabinets.
Sincerely,
Rimmer deVries
=========================================================================
From: Robert Root <rrjlife@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Info on EV Drivers?
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 19:54:28 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n297
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- --------------786B2B2A40F5
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Rimmer deVries wrote:
>
> Hi All:
>
> Does EV have a website or link to historic or classic EV and related
> company products. I just found a pair of EV Wolverine LT-10 12"
> triaxial drivers and I was wondering if anyone knew anything about
> them.. They are pretty nice sounding in a simple folded horn cabinets.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Rimmer deVries
Rimmer, I am looking for EV-T350/pr, and why are you selling the MK-3's?
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- --------------786B2B2A40F5--
=========================================================================
From: Rick Francis <rfranci@uoft03.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Info on HK 4010 100W SS PA amp
Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 08:52:58 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n210
I just got a rackmount Harman Kardon PA amp, quite large with 2 hefty
transformers. Model 4010, rated 100W, outputs for 8 ohm, 25v, 70.7v. 4
big output transistors on huge fan-cooled heatsinks. It seems to work fine.
Is this thing anything but a boat anchor? I guess someone could recycle the
chassis, but if anyone WANTS it or has ideas on what do with it
(deep-six it, send it to them, plant geraniums in it...), please let me
know. It might be out on the curb Wednesday morning.
Also got an Altec Lansing 1605C something -- a NOALA??? I think it came
out of a hospital PA system, and permitted a broadcast over the Muzak
(Nurse Ratchett, please come to Ward 3). Might be a good platform for a
DAC or preamp. Nice A-L db meter on the front. Would look nice perched
atop the aforementioned amp -- on the curb Wednesday morning.
Rick Francis, rfranci@uoft03.utoledo.edu
=========================================================================
From: "T. Loesch" <ezee_e@hotmail.com>
Subject: Info on my Preamp on-line now
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 02:36:20 PDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n360
Hi all,
The first iteration of my "Toccata" Preamp Info pack has been kindly
posted by Jim de Kort in his DIY Section. I did originally intend to
make this available as complete construction Article in the Pages of
TNT-Audio, due to the Size and Complexity of the Project I thought
better about it however.
There have been some updates to the Text I included. There are some
further notes on some potential Tripups and Problems included.
As I am aware that a few people have either started on building a copy
of the Design themselves or looking at doing so, please have a re-read
of the accompaying Text.... It may save you some time....
All other Analogue Addicts and Joes are of course welcome to comment and
offer suggestions for Improvement.
And lastly, this is not really an original Design, it has a lot of the
Arthur Loesch Preamp, some Allen Wright and some Joe Curico (Daniel V1)
in it with little original contribution from me.
As a result it is quite a good preamp....
http://www.vt52.com/
click on "DIY-Projects" and then "Other DIY'ers"
Kind regards Thorsten.
======================================
e-mail:
Thorsten@tnt-audio.com
Visit TNT-Audio on the Web - the only advertising
free audio web-zine.
http://www.tnt-audio.com
======================================
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
From: "T. Loesch" <ezee_e@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Info on my Preamp on-line now
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:16:26 PDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n361
Hartmut,
>I have seen that you put the volume pot behind the linestage
>like I suggested to you (and it is implemented e.g. in the
>PASS preamp Aleph P, I think).
That is partly because the Linestage is literally originally Arthur
Loesch. I only lowered the Impedance of the Attenuator somewhat....
The overall arrangement was sonically the best of all tried (SRPP, SLCF,
MU-Stage with Volume-Control before or after Stage).
>Can you tell exactly which sonically rewards you got with
>this.
Primarily Transparency.... My Interpretation is that the Attenuator in
all positions but the Maximum Level puts a significant Insulation
Resitance between the Valve and the (capacitive) Load of the
Interconnect and Amplifier Input. Thus the Distortion is being kept low.
Also, the Linestage allways run's at "full steam" like the rest of the
Preamp, so there are no sonical changes with changing Volume....
Distortion is very low anyway (about 0.1% THD for 2V Out predicted by
PSpice and in-line with measurments by others...).
In the Paralleled stage the Attenuator connected at the Input would have
to be no more than 25kOhm, which I'd view as too marginal....
>I did not hear your preamp, but I presume it must
>be excellent, as it resembles to 80% to a friend's
>preamp, which IS excellent.
Well, I'd say it is a fine Preamp. It does what I want it to do and
beats the living daylights out of my Battery-Powered Solid-State
Stuff.... (which ain't half-bad either)
>The main difference is that his one has one half
>in the first stage, and two halves of the E88CC
>in the second of the RIAA part,
Is that the Curico "Daniel" or the "Orthophonic" Kit sold in Germany
(they seem to use the same Circuit - Cascode Frontend, into compound
RIAA, into Attenuator, into parallel ECC88 Stage)?
>whereas you have it the other way round.
Only way to get low enough noise, less than Raytheon 5842's in the
original Arthur Loesch Circuit FAIW....
>But he prefers xfrs for moving coil, anyway, so his is
>a moving magnet stage preamp, only.
Hmmm, any decent Stepup Transformer costs real Money.... You can burn up
a lot of NOS E88CC for that money....
>You could put a xfr after the pot, lowering output
>driving impedance a lot.
It is quite low enough. As there is no Cathode Resistor to speak off,
the Output Impedance of the paralleled ECC88 Stage is quite low. So the
Output impedance of the Preamp is dominated by the Attenuator which
results in a maximum Output impedance of less than 3kOhm (around the
- -6db Point of the Attenuator).
On the Other hand, a Transformer would loose me gain I cannot afford to
loos if I want to drive a Poweramp directly with a 0.25mV Cartridge
connected at the input.... (0.25mV will produce about 1V RMS on the
Output)....
>Have you tried the SuperReg ?
Allen has send me one to try out, but I have not gotten around to it
yet....
I will eventually Change the 10H/10,000uF 'lytic Filter-Network for a
50H/>400uF polyprop (depends how much I can fit into the Space the
'lytic Cap currently occupies, they will be custom-made 250V Units).
I will however test Allens Super-Reg eventually.... Having run it
through PSpice however I noticed a Signal-Dependent Modulation of the
Dynamic Rail-Impedance similar (but lower in magnitude) to such Op-Amp
Servo-Regulators as used by Joe Curico....
I remain convinced that the "slight Solid-State" sonic Signature Allen
Wright observed on his Super-Reg is a direct Result of this Effect.
Using better Op-Amp's helps, but one would need to soemthing like an
AD811 or LM6181 to have a fast enough Reg.
And while the layout of Allens Reg-Kit is good, it is not good enough to
operate these kind of Op-Amp's....
All in all too much hassle from my viewpoint. And I had the Parts used
in the PSU around....
Had I had to buy them, I'd probably would have used the Super-Reg....
>PS: I just got a dozen of used but good old
>Siemens E88CC and a SuperReg, so I will try such
>a preamp for myself next time.
Have fun. It does make for a very nice preamp. Not a Valve-Preamp in the
classic sense, but also lacking the various colorations of Solid-State
Pre's.
Lightning-fast, ultra-Transparent and with a paceing and timeing that
equals any NAIM Pre.
Kind regards Thorsten.
======================================
e-mail:
Thorsten@tnt-audio.com
Visit TNT-Audio on the Web - the only advertising
free audio web-zine.
http://www.tnt-audio.com
======================================
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
From: Hartmut <Hartmut.Quaschik@mch.sni.de>
Subject: Re: Info on my Preamp on-line now
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:15:12 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n361
T. Loesch wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> The first iteration of my "Toccata" Preamp Info pack has been kindly
> posted by Jim de Kort in his DIY Section. I did originally intend to
> make this available as complete construction Article in the Pages of
> TNT-Audio, due to the Size and Complexity of the Project I thought
> better about it however.
...
Thorsten,
I have seen that you put the volume pot behind the linestage
like I suggested to you (and it is implemented e.g. in the
PASS preamp Aleph P, I think).
Can you tell exactly which sonically rewards you got with
this.
I did not hear your preamp, but I presume it must
be excellent, as it resembles to 80% to a friend's
preamp, which IS excellent. The main difference is
that his one has one half in the first stage, and
two halves of the E88CC in the second of the RIAA
part, whereas you have it the other way round. But
he prefers xfrs for moving coil, anyway, so his is
a moving magnet stage preamp, only.
You could put a xfr after the pot, lowering output
driving impedance a lot.
Have you tried the SuperReg ?
regards,
Hartmut from Munich
PS: I just got a dozen of used but good old
Siemens E88CC and a SuperReg, so I will try such
a preamp for myself next time.
> As I am aware that a few people have either started on building a copy
> of the Design themselves or looking at doing so, please have a re-read
> of the accompaying Text.... It may save you some time....
> As a result it is quite a good preamp....
>
> http://www.vt52.com/
=========================================================================
From: Rick Francis <rfranci@uoft03.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Info on Nikola Tesla
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 14:48:24 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n211
This information came from EDUPAGE, a free public list run by Educom. I
thought folks might enjoy reading about Tesla, one of my favorites in the
history of electricity.
--Rick
==============================
Today's Honorary Subscriber is Nikola Tesla (1856-1943), the
Croatian-American inventor who made numerous important contributions to the
development of radio transmission and to the field of electricity. His
inventions included the development of alternating current, an arc-lighting
system, the Tesla induction motor, the Tesla coil, and various generators
and transformers. His ideas had relevance to such fields as robotics,
computers, and missile science, and paved the way for advances in
satellites, microwaves, beam weapons, and nuclear fusion. His friends
included author Mark Twain and industrialist George Westinghouse; his
adversaries included Thomas Edison and Guglielmo Marconi.
In "Tesla: Man Out of Time" (1981), Margaret Cheney gives the following
explanation of the Tesla-Edison feud:
"The personality differences between the two men doomed their
relationship from the start. Edison disliked Tesla for being an egghead, a
theoretician, and cultured. Ninety-nine percent of genius, according the
Wizard of Menlo Park [Edison], was "knowing the things that would not work."
Hence he himself approached each problem with an elaborate process of
elimination.
"Of these 'empirical dragnets' Tesla would later say amusedly, 'If
Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the
diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found the object
of his search. I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little
theory and calculation would have saved him ninety-nine percent of his labor.'
"The well-known editor and engineer Thomas Commerford Martin recorded
that Edison, unable to find Tesla's obscure birthplace in Croatia on a map,
once seriously asked him whether he had ever eaten human flesh.
" 'Even the most cometic genius has its orbit,' Martin wisely wrote,
'and these two men are singularly representative of different kinds of
training, different methods, and different strains. Mr. Tesla must needs
draw apart ... for his own work's sake.'
"In so basic a matter as personal hygiene they could not have been more
different: Tesla, afraid of germs, fastidious in the extreme, once observed
of Edison, 'He had no hobby, cared for no sport or amusement of any kind,
and lived in utter disregard of the most elementary rules of hygiene... If
he had not married later a woman of exceptional intelligence, who made it
the one object of her life to preserve him, he would have died many years
ago from the consequences of sheer neglect...'
"The irreconcilable differences, however, went beyond personality.
Edison sensed the talented foreigner's threat to his [Edison's]
direct-current system, erroneously thinking DC was vital to the manufacture
and sale of his incandescent light bulbs. It was the old story of vested
interest. At the beginning Edison himself had met with violent resistance
from the gas monopolies. He had beaten down the gas companies with his
natural gift for propaganda, putting out regular bulletins in which he
gleefully described the dangers of gas-main explosions. His salesmen were
sent out to cover the country, reporting every incident of 'industrial
oppression' in which workers' health allegedly had been 'injured' by gas
heat or their vision damaged by gaslights. Now it looked as if he might
have to lash out against an even newer technology than his own."
************************************************************
Educom -- Transforming Education Through Information Technology
************************************************************
=========================================================================
From: Chris Galbraith <chrisg@ducker.com>
Subject: Info on Ortofon 540 cart
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:52:08 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n108
Anybody know anything about this cart? A friend gave me a slightly
used, but 6 year old one--having little experience in cartridges, I'm
wondering if it's an MC, stylus profile, etc. Dunno if sitting in a box
for 6 years would cause it to deteriorate?
Thanks for any input -Chris
=========================================================================
From: Thomas Dunker <dunker@invalid.ed.unit.no>
Subject: Re: Info on Ortofon 540 cart
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 18:36:40 +0100 (MET)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n109
On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Chris Galbraith wrote:
> Anybody know anything about this cart? A friend gave me a slightly
> used, but 6 year old one--having little experience in cartridges, I'm
> wondering if it's an MC, stylus profile, etc. Dunno if sitting in a box
> for 6 years would cause it to deteriorate?
The 540 is an MM cartridge. It was the top model in the 500 series. I
believe the only difference between the 3 or 4 carts (510, 520(?), 530 and
540) was the stylus. I believe the 540 has a Fritz Gyger stylus. I used
to have a brochure on the 500 series from Ortofon but I haven't seen it
in ages, otherwise I'd check it out for you.
Tom D.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
_/\_ Thomas Dunker \ The Horn Speaker Home Page:
/ \ P.O.Box 2811 \ http://invalid.ed.unit.no/~dunker/horns.html
| | 7002 Trondheim \
| | NORWAY \------\ "Those with head above water
\____/ dunker@invalid.ed.unit.no \ see only the tip of the iceberg"
|||| phone (+47)73916898 \ (Gene Dalby)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
From: Ed Johnson <rb1304@alltel.net>
Subject: info on we tube
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 23:26:03 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n480
I have a pair of western elec tubes which are tennis ball types D86326
4 pin triode,anyone got anything to share on these?
=========================================================================
From: Kurt Steffensen <solvin-aurum@get2net.dk>
Subject: Re: info on we tube
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 21:50:35 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n481
Dear Ed.
It is a 101D.
In the 1920īs insulation of the valves was a problem.
The D86326 is simply a high insulation versin.(At those days)
In the beginning of the 1930īs this subject was no longer a problem, and
the
D86326 was withdrawn from production.
The 101D tennis ball was produced untill the beginning of WW II.
- - Sincerely Kurt Steffensen
Ed Johnson skrev:
> I have a pair of western elec tubes which are tennis ball types D86326
> 4 pin triode,anyone got anything to share on these?
=========================================================================
From: Young-Min Chung <ymch@camars.kaist.ac.kr>
Subject: info request on Telefunken EL-152
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:46:46 +0900 (KST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n192
I'm looking for the tube data on Telefinken EL-152. it seems to be
a sort of beam tetrode like EL-156, but no more info on it.
- --------
Young-Min Chung
from Korea
=========================================================================
From: Holger Stein <STEINMUSIC@compuserve.com>
Subject: Informations
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 05:55:45 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n124
Hallo,
We have a serious problem to get informations about some IC's which seem to
be no longer in production, and we also did not get any informations about
them by the manufacturer as they can not be found in their current data
books.
It would help us very much if somebody of you should have older data books
where we could get those informations from.
What we need are informations about
Toshiba 14DW620
NEC ĩPD6121 G001and ...G002
Many thanks
Holger Stein
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx-------------------------------------------
STEIN HIFI SYSTEMS
Scharpenberg 64a
D- 45468 Mülheim
Germany
Fon ++49 208 32089
Fax ++49 208 390938
GSM ++49 172 2143196
STEINMUSIC@Compuserve.com
Worldwide distribution for Ennemoser's C37 Lack
.. and much more.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
=========================================================================
From: slagle@dtlweb.com (Dave Slagle)
Subject: info: WE 436A / UTC CG-51-AX
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:45:13 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n096
hey all,
figured I would take advantage of the newfound joenet love and beg for a
few tidbits of info...
groveling tidbit 1:
what's the pinout of the WE 436A, its a tetrode, and JC mentioned triode
wired it is similar to the elusive 437A... but 20 minutes and a loupe has
only given me one thing... a headache!
begging bit 'o info 2:
anybody have the specs of the UTC CG-51-AX??
a listmember sent me some info on the CG series, but it was not listed.
thanks
dave
=========================================================================
From: RALPH POWER <POWER.RALPH@epamail.epa.gov>
Subject: info: WE 436A / UTC CG-51-AX -Reply
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:29:02 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n097
Hi Dave,
Can't help you on the WE 436A but here is some info I have on the UTC CG-51-AX
that John Levrault sent me a few months ago:
CG-51AX is a "CG [Commercial Grade] Varimatch Driver Transformer" for
modulator service. It is specified for use with a 6C5, 6C4, 12AU7, 2A3, or
5814A on the primary and driving a PP pair of 2A3's or 6L6's. Maximum level is 1W.
These appear to be very rugged and conservatively rated.
The Varimatch transformers eliminate the problem of non-optimum matching of
drivers and output tubes "...through the use of a combination of tapped winding
affording an extremely wide range in impedance matching. Designs provide that for any
load impedance employed, full class C plate current can be carried by sedondary
winding." Primary impedances from 500 to 20,000 ohms, secondary impedances from
30,000 to 300 ohms. (This is from UTC Catalog 56A.)
Hope this helps,
- Ralph
=========================================================================
From: Peter Allen <ptrallen@emu.melbpc.org.au>
Subject: In praise of Andre
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:09:26 +1100 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n094
Macbeth had his ambition, Hamlet his indecision, and Andre's imperfections
are known to most of us.
My friends and I have character flaws, we know them, and our relationship is
the stronger for the acceptance.
I want to say that my meetings with Andre here have enriched my life. A lot.
- -peter
_____________________________________________________________
Peter Allen ptrallen@melbpc.org.au ( 8*{)
Editor, Melbourne Audio Club http://www.vicnet.net.au/~macinc
=========================================================================
From: ldmo@cbmaila.cb.lucent.com
Subject: RE: Input/coupling transformers
Date: 28 Apr 98 09:42:00 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n264
Jeff:
http://www.optind.com/alinehtm.htm
This should give you some info on the UTC tx.
L.D. Moore
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-sound [SMTP:owner-sound@lists.io.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 1998 10:03 AM
To: sound
Subject: Input/coupling transformers
Hi all,
All the recent banter about input and stage coupling transformers
has
given me the bug; I dug through my junk box and found some
candidates
for a new project. Found some nice looking Stancor WF-36's and UTC
A26's; can anyone share any information on either/both of these?
Thanks for the help.
-jeff
=========================================================================
From: "Jeff Brouwer"<jbrouwer@mail.crc.com>
Subject: Input/coupling transformers
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 98 10:03:20 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n264
Hi all,
All the recent banter about input and stage coupling transformers has
given me the bug; I dug through my junk box and found some candidates
for a new project. Found some nice looking Stancor WF-36's and UTC
A26's; can anyone share any information on either/both of these?
Thanks for the help.
-jeff
=========================================================================
From: Russell Twining <R.Twining@utas.edu.au>
Subject: Input Impeadance Leak stereo 20
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 13:31:00 +1100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n172
Would someone please tell me the input impednce of the above amplifier?
Thanks
Russell.
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: Input Impeadance Leak stereo 20
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 23:51:07 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n173
Hi,
Use an ohm-meter, I guess that will help you find your answer
Guido
At 13:31 27-1-98 +1100, Russell Twining wrote:
>Would someone please tell me the input impednce of the above amplifier?
>
>Thanks
>
>Russell.
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Grego Sanguinetti <grego@latticesemi.com>
Subject: input suggest, re Grover's amp
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 19:19:06 -0800 (PST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n155
to try and make up for my last post of the curmudgeon.... something
hopefully usefull...
Grover, while you are making that AES order, pick up a pair of 5964's.
As long as you are humbly B^) considering 7pin mini's, these are dandy
little migh mu (39) dual triodes with pretty low Rp 6k5R. They will take
250v on the plate but like to sing songs at 150 or so.
I have done some experimenting and had mixed results, but the good
results were pretty good so they are worth checking out.
- -grego
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Grego Sanguinetti, Lattice Semiconductor Corp. | Water, water everywhere,
grego@latticesemi.com | but I'd rather drink beer
=========================================================================
From: "J. Gordon Rankin" <waudio@cinti.net>
Subject: input trannies
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 98 10:05:34 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n384
Gang,
I had a great idea for a powered speaker project, but need a little more
gain on the input. I know a couple of months ago people were talking
about 1.5 and 2 gain input trannies. Can I get the source again!
Thanks
Gordon
<idea INPUT=>WE437A=>ES050=>Speaker>
=======> Wavelength Audio <=======
mailto:waudio@cinti.net
http://www.wavelengthaudio.com
ph.fx. 513-271-4186 USA
=========================================================================
From: "dehls" <dehls@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Input Transformers
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:25:57 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n227
Hello Fellow Solder Sniffers,
The need to experiment on my PP300B amps
has struck. I'd like to replace the 12FQ7 input/
phase splitter with a transformer.
So...............
I'm in need of two input transformers, somewhere
between 2:1 and 5:1, center tap on the higher
ratio side, 80% nickel core, mu metal shield.
Does anyone have ideas on what would work and
where I can order them from? Any ideas on cost?
Thanks,
David Dehls
=========================================================================
From: "Lynn T. Olson" <lynno@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Input Transformers
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 23:55:28 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n227
>The need to experiment on my PP300B amps
>has struck. I'd like to replace the 12FQ7 input/
>phase splitter with a transformer.
>
>I'm in need of two input transformers, somewhere
>between 2:1 and 5:1, center tap on the higher
>ratio side, 80% nickel core, mu metal shield.
>
>Does anyone have ideas on what would work and
>where I can order them from? Any ideas on cost?
>
>Thanks,
>
>David Dehls
Go visit the Lundahl Web page at: http://www.lundahl.se
You are looking for mike/line input transformers, with the restriction on
input level a consideration. If I remember right, a dBu is 0.775V, so there
you are, assuming you are aware of the required drive level for the input
stage. Lundahl makes 1:1, 1:2, and 1:4 ratios, with dual secondaries, your
choice of amorphous or nickel cores, all available with mu-metal shielding.
Prices are moderate, around US$40 or so, and quality is in the Jensen
prosound range.
Beware high step-up ratios. I was using 1:4 stepup, harmless enough I
thought, until it dawned on me that the Miller capacitance of the input
pair of grids would be multiplied *sixteen times* by the input trans.
Suddenly the harmless 50pF grid-to-grid Miller C now looks like 800pF! This
gets added to whatever cable capacitance you may have, so the preamp has
its work cut out for it. No 12AX7's need apply.
Another gotcha is the source impedance seen by the input trans *must be
low* if you want any kind of bandwidth at all. In practice, this means 2K
or less, ruling out passive pots entirely.
Lynn T. Olson
E-mail: lynno@teleport.com
Ariel Page: http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/Ariel.htm
Editor, Valve & Tube News
=========================================================================
From: MHuber@t-online.de (Manfred Huber)
Subject: Re: Input Transformers
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 98 13:51:31 -0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n227
On Mon, 23 Mar 1998 23:55:28 -0800, Lynn T. Olson wrote:
>Go visit the Lundahl Web page at: http://www.lundahl.se
I second that! I use the Lundahl LL1554 as an input transformer/phase splitter
configured for 1:1+1 operation. It's a wonderful performer IMHO and at a very
competitive price. This transformer can also be set up for 1:2+2 operation
but your preamp will need a very low output impedance for this to work well.
I found that the input level into the transformer should not be above
1V peek (when used as 1:1+1) so the amp behind the transformer should have
enough gain.
One other thing is that these transformers want to see absolutely NO DC current!
If you have a preamp with a line output transformer or a blocking capacitor on the output
there is nothing to worry about. If you have a solid state preamp make sure that
it ain't putting out a few millivolts of dc.
Regards
Manfred
- ------------------
Manfred Huber
MHuber@t-online.de
- ------------------
=========================================================================
From: An-shyang Chu <achu@sandia.gov>
Subject: Re[3]: Input Transformers
Date: 24 Mar 1998 14:18:04 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n228
_______________________________________________________________________________
Lynn Olson say:
.....
Another gotcha is the source impedance seen by the input trans *must be
low* if you want any kind of bandwidth at all. In practice, this means 2K
or less, ruling out passive pots entirely.
.....
Manfred says:
........
.... I use the Lundahl LL1554 as an input transformer/phase splitter
configured for 1:1+1 operation. It's a wonderful performer IMHO and at a very
competitive price. This transformer can also be set up for 1:2+2 operation
but your preamp will need a very low output impedance for this to work well.
I found that the input level into the transformer should not be above
1V peek (when used as 1:1+1) so the amp behind the transformer should have
enough gain.
One other thing is that these transformers want to see absolutely NO DC current!
If you have a preamp with a line output transformer or a blocking capacitor on
the output
there is nothing to worry about. If you have a solid state preamp make sure that
it ain't putting out a few millivolts of dc.
.......
- ------------------
It is good that this topic came up. I have been thinking about this for quit a
while and came up with the following scheme (for my PP-6B4G project):
(1) input to grid of 6SN7 cathode follower. We will get lesser than 1V out
assuming standard 1-2V source.
(2) this output is than parallel-feed (via CF) to the LL1554 in 600 Ohm
connection --> this will satisfy both Lynn and Manfred's suggestions of low
impendence and low input voltage for the LL1554!
(3) the secondary goes to the next stage (medium mu triode 8532, 5965, etc.) I
am going to use Mike's center-tapped choke here.
hopper
=========================================================================
From: MHuber@t-online.de (Manfred Huber)
Subject: Re: Re[3]: Input Transformers
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 98 08:59:14 -0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n230
On 24 Mar 1998 14:18:04 -0700, An-shyang Chu wrote:
>(1) input to grid of 6SN7 cathode follower. We will get lesser than 1V out
>assuming standard 1-2V source.
>(2) this output is than parallel-feed (via CF) to the LL1554 in 600 Ohm
>connection --> this will satisfy both Lynn and Manfred's suggestions of low
>impendence and low input voltage for the LL1554!
I would prefer to use the transformer directly at the Input of the amp. This way
you can make good use of the common mode rejection. I have the signal grounds of
both my preamp and my poweramps connected to security ground and use the line input
transformers to break the nasty ground loop. Absolutely no hum with this setup.
It looks like this:
Preamp Poweramp
Tango NP8 4:1 LL1554 1:1+1
B+ ----\||/--------------------\||/--- Grid
/||\ /||\
\||/ \||/
/||\ /||\--- GND
\||/ \||/
/||\ /||\
Plate ---\||/--+-----------------\||/--- Grid
|
GND
Regards
Manfred
- ------------------
Manfred Huber
MHuber@t-online.de
- ------------------
=========================================================================
From: postmast@musicworks.co.nz (Stephen Delft)
Subject: Re: In reply to JC
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:30:36 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n041
JC, I appreciate your reply. I am interested that you see things
differently. You make several very good points. I'm not sure I
can agree with some of them - I'll need some time to think about it.
It may have something to do with the different countries and
different environments in which we live. And maybe I'm seeing the
dynamics of this thing all wrong...I don't know.
Maybe also it's a matter of degree...For example, I think it's
impractical to eliminate grafitti on city walls entirely - and I'm
not sure one ought to try...some of it looks a lot better than the
decaying buildings behind. But I don't particularly want to see
"harry is a wanker" or "fuck all nigger bitches" in 2-foot high
dayglo letters every time I enter the railway station. (I also
believe that if you leave the ugly stuff up there for long enough,
you get more of it.)
I do value your observation that a high-tech education may now have
little time for wisdom and humanity. - This is a truly dangerous
situation for the future. Where we may differ, is that I don't think
the recent angry discussions on JoeNet offer much improvement to
this situation.
Frank and Andre have now moderated the tone of their discussion,
but look at the mess they've left behind. There are times when I
feel I must stand up for freedom of expression, but this wasn't one
of them.
- Stephen
=========================================================================
From: pitaro@ozemail.com.au
Subject: Re: In reply to JC
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:05:07 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n044
** Reply to note from postmast@musicworks.co.nz (Stephen Delft) Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:30:36 -0400
(snip)
> But I don't particularly want to see
> "harry is a wanker".....
(snip)
Yeah!!! I don't either! :)
Regards,
Harry Pitaro
+-----------------------+---------------------------------------------+
| Melbourne, Australia | A good discussion is like a miniskirt; |
| | Short enough to retain interest |
| pitaro@ozemail.com.au | and long enough to cover the subject. |
+-----------------------+---------------------------------------------+
=========================================================================
From: An-shyang Chu <achu@sandia.gov>
Subject: inrush current limiter in filament supply
Date: 21 May 1998 14:30:59 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n288
Hi Guys,
In an effort trying to fix my power tube filament problem, I have been thinking
about using some kind of "slow start" method of running the filament supply.
One method that has been talk about is the use of NTC thermistor (inrush limiter
types) in series with the filament (5ohm --> 0.11ohm). Has anyone try this?
Does the thermistor have a negative effect on the sound?? How about using the
thermistor in the primary side if a seperated filament transformer is used
(120ohm --> 1.2ohm)?? Thanks for the feedback.
hopper
=========================================================================
From: Grego Sanguinetti <grego@latticesemi.com>
Subject: Re: inrush current limiter in filament supply
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 17:24:48 -0700 (PDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n288
On 21 May 1998, An-shyang Chu wrote:
> Hi Guys,
>
> In an effort trying to fix my power tube filament problem, I have been thinking
> about using some kind of "slow start" method of running the filament supply.
> One method that has been talk about is the use of NTC thermistor (inrush limiter
> types) in series with the filament (5ohm --> 0.11ohm). Has anyone try this?
Yes, I highly recommend it.
> Does the thermistor have a negative effect on the sound?? How about using the
No negative effects that I have detected. Your ears may vary or your mind B^)
> thermistor in the primary side if a seperated filament transformer is used
> (120ohm --> 1.2ohm)?? Thanks for the feedback.
Yup the primary side is where I stick 'em little buggers.
love em.
- -grego
=========================================================================
From: Thomas Danley <Tom@ppci.com>
Subject: Re: inrush current limiter in filament supply
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 22:20:26 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n288
An-shyang Chu wrote:
>
> Hi Guys,
>
> In an effort trying to fix my power tube filament problem, I have been thinking
> about using some kind of "slow start" method of running the filament supply.
> One method that has been talk about is the use of NTC thermistor (inrush limiter
> types) in series with the filament (5ohm --> 0.11ohm). Has anyone try this?
> Does the thermistor have a negative effect on the sound?? How about using the
> thermistor in the primary side if a seperated filament transformer is used
> (120ohm --> 1.2ohm)?? Thanks for the feedback.
>
> hopper
Hi
Sounds like a good idea. Back in the "olden days" (when TV's had tubes
and I was in high school) I had a job at a TV store fixing B&W tv's and
testing tubes for the color TV guy. Many of the TV's of that era had a
NTC thermistor in series, looked like a large silver&black disc cap.
I made a 200w/ch tube stereo amp back then with a multiplier supply (4,
KT88 per ch), I had to use the same TV type, NTC's to limit the inrush
current. Due to the resistances available, the primary side would be the
place. They do need to be sized for the job as staying hot is part of
the job. I think Digi Key used to carry them.
Best Regards,
Thomas Danley
ITC
=========================================================================
From: peterca@ento.csiro.au
Subject: Re: inrush current limiter in filament supply
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 17:29:56 +1000 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n288
Remember that filaments are rated for a particular current and voltage.
Another approach would be to build a constant current supply (not that I
have actually done it). It would be a very high AC impedance so a cap
following would give very good filtering for smooth DC in operation. The
current to the filament would be correct from stone cold to fully heated; a
very gentle turn on.
More crudely one could have a higher voltage supply with a series dropping
resistor. Current would be limited at turn on. The resistor would be
chosen to give the right voltage at the filament when the correct current
is drawn. The resistor will automatically reduce the voltage when the
current is high and vice versa. The variation in power dissipated by the
filament will be reduced.
Dr. Peter Campbell (peterca@ento.csiro.au)
Div. Entomology, C.S.I.R.O. Ph.61-2-62464053 or -62464158 (w)
Box 1700 Canberra A.C.T. 2601 61-2-62516213 (h)
Australia 61-2-62464173 (fax)
=========================================================================
From: Thomas Danley <Tom@ppci.com>
Subject: Re: inrush current limiter in filament supply
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 07:59:17 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n289
An-shyang Chu wrote:
>
> Hi Guys,
>
> In an effort trying to fix my power tube filament problem, I have been thinking
> about using some kind of "slow start" method of running the filament supply.
> One method that has been talk about is the use of NTC thermistor (inrush limiter
> types) in series with the filament (5ohm --> 0.11ohm). Has anyone try this?
> Does the thermistor have a negative effect on the sound?? How about using the
> thermistor in the primary side if a seperated filament transformer is used
> (120ohm --> 1.2ohm)?? Thanks for the feedback.
>
> hopper
Hi
Sounds like a good idea. Back in the "olden days" (when TV's had tubes
and I was in high school) I had a job at a TV store fixing B&W tv's and
testing tubes for the color TV guy. Many of the TV's of that era had a
NTC thermistor in series, looked like a large silver&black disc cap.
I made a 200w/ch tube stereo amp back then with a multiplier supply (4,
KT88 per ch), I had to use the same TV type, NTC's to limit the inrush
current. Due to the resistances available, the primary side would be the
place. They do need to be sized for the job as staying hot is part of
the job. I think Digi Key used to carry them.
Best Regards,
Thomas Danley
ITC
=========================================================================
From: Christian Rintelen <rintelen@datacomm.ch>
Subject: Re: inrush current limiter in filament supply
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 14:09:20 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n291
Grego Sanguinetti wrote:
> On 21 May 1998, An-shyang Chu wrote:
>
> > Hi Guys,
> >
> > In an effort trying to fix my power tube filament problem, I have been thinking
> > about using some kind of "slow start" method of running the filament supply.
> > One method that has been talk about is the use of NTC thermistor (inrush limiter
> > types) in series with the filament (5ohm --> 0.11ohm). Has anyone try this?
>
> Yes, I highly recommend it.
>
> > Does the thermistor have a negative effect on the sound?? How about using the
>
> No negative effects that I have detected. Your ears may vary or your mind B^)
>
> > thermistor in the primary side if a seperated filament transformer is used
> > (120ohm --> 1.2ohm)?? Thanks for the feedback.
>
> Yup the primary side is where I stick 'em little buggers.
>
> love em.
>
> -grego
I'm using a NTC 22 on the primary side for a slow start up of the whole amp. And on
the B+ of the power tube I use a NTC 22 after the rectification (before CLLC) in
order to make sure the filaments are hot before B+ is applied. Why would you use them
on the filaments? And yes, IMHO they make no difference in sound - I've compared both
versions.
Christian
- --
Christian Rintelen Konzept und Text
Dufourstrasse 165 CH-8008 Zurich Switzerland
Phone (01) 420 11 55 Fax (01) 420 11 57
E-Mail: rintelen@datacomm.ch
=========================================================================
From: Christian Rintelen <rintelen@datacomm.ch>
Subject: Re: inrush current limiter in filament supply
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 15:25:15 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n291
Christian Rintelen wrote:
> Grego Sanguinetti wrote:
>
> > On 21 May 1998, An-shyang Chu wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Guys,
> > >
> > > In an effort trying to fix my power tube filament problem, I have been thinking
> > > about using some kind of "slow start" method of running the filament supply.
> > > One method that has been talk about is the use of NTC thermistor (inrush limiter
> > > types) in series with the filament (5ohm --> 0.11ohm). Has anyone try this?
> >
> > Yes, I highly recommend it.
> >
> > > Does the thermistor have a negative effect on the sound?? How about using the
> >
> > No negative effects that I have detected. Your ears may vary or your mind B^)
> >
> > > thermistor in the primary side if a seperated filament transformer is used
> > > (120ohm --> 1.2ohm)?? Thanks for the feedback.
> >
> > Yup the primary side is where I stick 'em little buggers.
> >
> > love em.
> >
> > -grego
>
> I'm using a NTC 22 on the primary side for a slow start up of the whole amp. And on
> the B+ of the power tube I use a NTC 22
ooops: that's a NTC 220 after the rectification
> after the rectification (before CLLC) in
> order to make sure the filaments are hot before B+ is applied. Why would you use them
> on the filaments? And yes, IMHO they make no difference in sound - I've compared both
> versions.
>
>
- --
Christian Rintelen Konzept und Text
Dufourstrasse 165 CH-8008 Zurich Switzerland
Phone (01) 420 11 55 Fax (01) 420 11 57
E-Mail: rintelen@datacomm.ch
=========================================================================
From: An-shyang Chu <achu@sandia.gov>
Subject: Re[2]: inrush current limiter in filament supply
Date: 26 May 1998 08:33:47 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n293
Hi Christiean,
>the B+ of the power tube I use a NTC 22 after the rectification (before CLLC) >
in
>order to make sure the filaments are hot before B+ is applied. Why would you >>
>use them
>on the filaments?
The inrush current on the filament can be fairly high. If I did my calculation
right.. the inrush is at least 3.5 times the steady state (i.e. the cold
resistance of the tube vs the V/I e.g. 1.2 ohm vs 4.17 ohm!!). I have blown
five power tubes so far (I will not name brand names).... there is a good reason
for soft start!!
hopper
=========================================================================
From: Rick Francis <rfranci@uoft03.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: inrush current limiter in filament supply
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 11:01:58 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n293
> The inrush current on the filament can be fairly high. If I did my calculation
> right.. the inrush is at least 3.5 times the steady state (i.e. the cold
> resistance of the tube vs the V/I e.g. 1.2 ohm vs 4.17 ohm!!). I have blown
> five power tubes so far (I will not name brand names).... there is a good reason
> for soft start!!
>
> hopper
>
An oldtimer showed me some nifty devices exactly for this. They are
high-watt resistors (maybe a couple hundred ohms, maybe 500), with a
bimetal strip paralleling the resistor. As the resistor heats up, so does
the bi-metal strip, which causes it to straighten or curl (I forget which)
until it makes contact at the other end, and so by-passes the resistor
entirely, no resistance, and the contacts are large and sturdy. Voila, no
big current rush. Apparently in the right location they stay warm enough
for contact to remain till the unit is shut down.
Does anyone know where to obtain such units? Surplus place, maybe?
Rick
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: inrush current limiter in filament supply
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 23:04:55 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n293
>The inrush current on the filament can be fairly high. If I did my
>calculation
>right.. the inrush is at least 3.5 times the steady state (i.e. the cold
>resistance of the tube vs the V/I e.g. 1.2 ohm vs 4.17 ohm!!).
I noticed values up to 10 times !
>I have blown
>five power tubes so far (I will not name brand names).... there is a good
reason
>for soft start!!
Which is one of the advantages of the use of voltage regulators: they have
current limit as well
But then again the ac-dc issue
Guido
>hopper
>
>
=========================================================================
From: "T. Loesch" <ezee_e@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Insulator for Speaker Cables
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 06:39:31 PST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n496
Hi there,
>> I'm new to the DIY thing but am keen to start my first project.
>> I need a set of speaker cables I can run under a carpet.
Might I suggest the following Cable:
Use 19mm (~3.4") wide Copperfoil as available from various sources
rather inexpensivley. This is usually called EMI-Shielding Tape.
This copperfoil often comes with a form of adheasive, try to find some
with non-conducting adheasive.
Try searching @
www.rswww.com
for the RS-Stock Number: 512-187
The non-conducting adheasive is usually acrylic. The other side of the
copper is unprotected. Simply use acrylic Spray Laquer or paint it on.
Do not though the Foil with your bare hands.
Then simply find some Polyethylen (polyurethan) Foam Tape of suitable
width and stick the adheasive side of the copper down on this.
Try searching @
www.rswww.com
for the RS-Stock Number: 554-866
For a somewhat thinner (and more fragile Cable) you could use
Polypropylen Tape.
Try searching @
www.rswww.com
for the RS-Stock Number: 555-033
The two tapes go normally on opposite sides of the Insulating Tape.
This results in a Cable with high Capacitance and this can upset certain
Amplifiers.
As a general Rule, Valve (Tube in the US of A) Amplifiers are save,
specifically Zero Feedback SIngle Ended Circuits, but certain ill
designed Sand Amplifiers (Linn, Naim, NVA to name a few) can take
offence.
Putting more of the tape on the other two outer sides ensures that a
good dielectric is present near the conductor.
To make sure the Cable is protected the whole Cable then should be
covered with Heatshrink Sleeving of 1" unshrunken Diameter and carefully
shrunken as to prserve the interity of the Cable.
There you have your own "High-End" Speakercable and yes, it is Flat too.
BTW, while the insulator matters in Speakercables, it does less so than
in Interconnects.
And to my personal surprise I recently found that a certain
(Interconnect) Cable with solid Polyethylen Insulation sounded a lot
better than one with Teflon & Air Dielectric....!
Seems the last has not been spoken on this issue....
Kind regards Thorsten.
======================================
e-mail:
Thorsten@tnt-audio.com
Visit TNT-Audio on the Web - the only advertising
free audio web-zine.
http://www.tnt-audio.com
======================================
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
From: David Metz <dnmetz@uniserve.com>
Subject: Insulator for Speaker Cables
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 07:41:19 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n496
Hello,
I'm new to the DIY thing but am keen to start my first project.
I need a set of speaker cables I can run under a carpet. As such I thought
I'd make a set of cables imitating the structure of some of the Nordost
(flat) cables. I can envision the jig I'd need to pull the cables into
alignment. I think I understand how to solder them (seems very simple
unless I've missed something).
What I am unsure of is how to insulate 8 to 16 closely spaced copper wires.
I realize I could get some insulator in tube form and pull them on but
doing that 16-32 times sounds more like agony than a hobby.
Is there an audio-acceptable insulator that I can paint on?
If there is then I could run wide tape on the bottom of the stretched
wires, paint the top, let it dry, flip it, peal the tape and paint that
side too. It wouldn't need to be as good as teflon , I'm not that picky.
It would need to cover and flow between the wires. It would need to
maintain some kind of flexibility when dry.
Anything out there?
All help appreciated,
Dave
- --
David Metz dnmetz@uniserve.com
=========================================================================
From: Paul Butterfield <paulbutterfield@mpinet.net>
Subject: Re: Insulator for Speaker Cables
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 08:49:01 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n496
Hi David, have you thought of using the ribbon cables that are used in
computers? Many have reported that this tweak has worked very well. They are
available in teflon and lacquered foil insulation with different foil
thickness and gauges of multiple wires. Call local computer supply shops for
bulk pricing. Good mil spec wire is also available at surplus outlets. To make
your own flat cables, instead of painting insulation, get wide teflon tape and
make sandwich with spaced wire laid out on sticky side.
Just my 2 pennies...
David Metz wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I'm new to the DIY thing but am keen to start my first project.
> I need a set of speaker cables I can run under a carpet. As such I thought
> I'd make a set of cables imitating the structure of some of the Nordost
> (flat) cables. I can envision the jig I'd need to pull the cables into
> alignment. I think I understand how to solder them (seems very simple
> unless I've missed something).
>
> What I am unsure of is how to insulate 8 to 16 closely spaced copper wires.
> I realize I could get some insulator in tube form and pull them on but
> doing that 16-32 times sounds more like agony than a hobby.
>
> Is there an audio-acceptable insulator that I can paint on?
>
> If there is then I could run wide tape on the bottom of the stretched
> wires, paint the top, let it dry, flip it, peal the tape and paint that
> side too. It wouldn't need to be as good as teflon , I'm not that picky.
> It would need to cover and flow between the wires. It would need to
> maintain some kind of flexibility when dry.
>
> Anything out there?
>
> All help appreciated,
>
> Dave
>
> --
> David Metz dnmetz@uniserve.com
- --
"Unka" Paul Butterfield
"Those who hear not the music think the dancers mad."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-=Paul Butterfield=-
-=Squeaky Chair Studio=-
Location sound & re-recording
Winter Park (Orlando) FL USA
=========================================================================
From: "Doc B." <bottlehead@silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: Insulator for Speaker Cables
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 08:53:00 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n496
>And to my personal surprise I recently found that a certain
>(Interconnect) Cable with solid Polyethylen Insulation sounded a lot
>better than one with Teflon & Air Dielectric....!
>
>Seems the last has not been spoken on this issue....
Yes, I have had the same experience. That's why we ended up using Jena Labs
wire. Jennifer Crock feels that it is the superior damping characteristic of
the polyethylene that makes the difference.
Doc B.
=========================================================================
From: David Metz <dnmetz@uniserve.com>
Subject: Re: Insulator for Speaker Cables
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 09:24:30 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n497
Copper Foil
Computer Wire
Magnet Wire
Many sticky insulators
PlastiDip (That's the stuff! I remember seeing it years ago...)
Even parts numbers!
Thanks for the responses. Out of these and some local suppliers I should be
able to cobble together something very nice. It's really encouraging to
know that others have succeeded with these kinds of designs.
Dave
- --
David Metz dnmetz@uniserve.com
=========================================================================
From: Jeremy Epstein <jepstein@shwd.com>
Subject: Intellectual Property Request
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 12:16:47 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n492
All right, I guess I'd better cover my head here. Does anybody want to
copy the 1988 Speaker Builder article on upgrading the Radio Shack
Minimus 7 Speaker for me? (There were also Minimus 7 articles in '90 and
'91, I'd love to see them too.) Now, before you crank up your guns, hear
me out. I respect intellectual property rights as much as the next guy.
I ALWAYS pay for my back issues, and usually I'm glad to do so. But
here's Audio Amateur's policy : I can buy ALL the issues for a
particular year, or none. 23 clams for one article I *may* be interested
in. And $25 for '90 and '91. So here's the deal. If someone wants to
Xerox and send me these little copyright violations, I will send an
anonymous payment of $5 per article to Speaker Builder. I can't see how
anyone gets hurt by this proposal. Maybe it's not my place to set their
prices, but hey - supply and demand, right?
- -j
- --
=====================================
Jeremy Epstein .... jepstein@shwd.com
=====================================
=========================================================================
From: irishtom@webtv.net (tom brennan)
Subject: Re: Intellectual Property Request
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 12:28:16 -0600 (CST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n492
Jeremy---Seems to me that if someone wants to give you, as opposed to
sell, copies of the articles in question it's none of SBs business. And
a person should certainly be free to sell you the magazine itself or
pages in question, as far as I know we are free to sell our physical
property.
Tom Brennan
=========================================================================
From: William Eckle <wmeckle@uswest.net>
Subject: Re: Intellectual Property Request
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:36:36 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n493
At 12:16 PM 11/16/98 -0500, Jeremy Epstein wrote:
>All right, I guess I'd better cover my head here. Does anybody want to
>copy the 1988 Speaker Builder article on upgrading the Radio Shack
>Minimus 7 Speaker for me? (There were also Minimus 7 articles in '90 and
>'91, I'd love to see them too.)
Hi Jeremy:
I scaned the above articles, including "maibox" references I saw (could have missed a few). It
comes to 22 pages in all in PDF format, then Zipped, it is over 2 megs in size. I'll send them to y
ou, if you ok it (don't know the size of your mail box).
A free PDF viewer can be obtailed from Adobe, Madisound and other sites. I didn't edit the pag
es, so ads, and other info that happened to be on that page is there also.
Let me know if you want me to send it as an attachment ? ?
<bold><color><param>ffff,0000,0000</param>-=Bill Eckle=-
</color></bold>wmeckle@uswest.net
<italic><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>Phoenix, Arizona
USA</color></italic>
=========================================================================
From: Douglas Purl <dcp@selway.umt.edu>
Subject: Re: Intellectual Property Request
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:39:07 -0700 (MST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n493
On Mon, 16 Nov 1998, tom brennan wrote:
> Jeremy---Seems to me that if someone wants to give you, as opposed to
> sell, copies of the articles in question it's none of SBs business. And
> a person should certainly be free to sell you the magazine itself or
> pages in question, as far as I know we are free to sell our physical
> property.
By law there is the right to copy without profit. There is a long history
of this issue extending back beyond Blackstone to the incunabulum of
English common law. Without the principle of non-profit replication
public libraries would be impossible.
Apropos this issue, I was rather appalled by Ken Pohlmann recently in his
monthly audio column denouncing those who oppose Circuit City's new baby,
the vanishing digital audio disc. Pohlmann argued that not only were the
thieves who thought this scam up entitled to carry it off, they should do
so. He thought users ought in fairness be required to pay a fee each
time they listen to a disc.
It is a pernicious principle ratified not by fairness but by the
possibility of controlling software afforded by new technology. By Mr.
Pohlmann's reasoning we should be required to pay a fee each time we read
a book we own. As soon as that technology develops, I expect to see KP
out pimping on behalf of more corporate pickpocketing, a shill buttering
his bread. Our cozen Pohlmann.
Doug Purl
=========================================================================
From: "Warren Tremain" <warren@icanect.net>
Subject: Re: Intellectual Property Request
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:18:25 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n493
I would think that photocopying the article and mailing it without charging
more than say photocopy and mail costs, would fall under fair use, However I
have noticed copyright notices popping up on photocopy machines in Public
libraries and Kinko's does ask on ocassion if you are the copyright owner of
a photo or article when you ask for copies ( I think they even have a form).
As for selling pages or the magazine itself I don't think thats the problem
its creating additional copies of something and then selling those copies
in a sense bootlegging copies of SB which if I were SB I would be secretly
proud of)
As far as the original poster sorry I don't have what you want or i would
photocopy the article and send it to you
- -----Original Message-----
From: tom brennan <irishtom@webtv.net>
To: sound@deliverator.io.com <sound@deliverator.io.com>
Date: Monday, November 16, 1998 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: Intellectual Property Request
Jeremy---Seems to me that if someone wants to give you, as opposed to
sell, copies of the articles in question it's none of SBs business. And
a person should certainly be free to sell you the magazine itself or
pages in question, as far as I know we are free to sell our physical
property.
Tom Brennan
=========================================================================
From: "Lynn T. Olson" <lynno@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Intellectual Property Request
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:28:11 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n494
>Apropos this issue, I was rather appalled by Ken Pohlmann recently in his
>monthly audio column denouncing those who oppose Circuit City's new baby,
>the vanishing digital audio disc. Pohlmann argued that not only were the
>thieves who thought this scam up entitled to carry it off, they should do
>so. He thought users ought in fairness be required to pay a fee each
>time they listen to a disc.
>
>It is a pernicious principle ratified not by fairness but by the
>possibility of controlling software afforded by new technology. By Mr.
>Pohlmann's reasoning we should be required to pay a fee each time we read
>a book we own. As soon as that technology develops, I expect to see KP
>out pimping on behalf of more corporate pickpocketing, a shill buttering
>his bread. Our cozen Pohlmann.
>
>Doug Purl
I am in full agreement. I was quite startled to read Pohlmann's defense of
DIVX, the noxious pay-per-play encrypted-DVD cooked up by a LA law firm and
Circuit City. It isn't very often that you see a technology that has
absolutely *zero* consumer advantages ... the last time I can think of
anything that offensive was the pay-toilet craze in the early Seventies.
Mr. Pohlmann has pulled off the dubious achievement of beating Julian
Hirsch (all amps sound the same) and Len Feldman (perfect sound forever) at
their own game. By promoting the idea that the public don't deserve to own
their own media anyway, he's doing a great job of softening up the public
for pay-per-use in all areas ... wouldn't it be great if every time you
used your "free" browser, good-ol-boy Bill Gates got a penny direct from
your bank account to his? Now there's a concept ...
Lynn Olson
Editor, Valve & Tube News
E-mail: lynno@teleport.com
Ariel Speaker Page: http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/Ariel.htm
=========================================================================
From: "Lynn T. Olson" <lynno@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Intellectual Property Request
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:41:18 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n494
>Since congress openly advertises that it is for sale, it reversed
>tradition by granting the recording industry extraordinary restrictive use
>privileges. We'll see if the public buys the x-rated digital discs.
>
>Doug Purl
It's the U.S. Congress that's Pay-Per-Use! No wonder they want the rest of
us to have the same system ... what a generous bunch of fellas they are!
Lynn Olson
Editor, Valve & Tube News
E-mail: lynno@teleport.com
Ariel Speaker Page: http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/Ariel.htm
=========================================================================
From: "Doc B." <bottlehead@silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: Intellectual Property Request
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:08:31 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n494
If you are reading this e-mail, you are required to send me a quarter for
using it.
Citizens for Pay Toilets in the U.S. Capitol
P.O. Box 2786
Poulsbo, WA 98370
Doc B.
www.bottlehead.com
- -----Original Message-----
From: Lynn T. Olson <lynno@teleport.com>
To: sound@deliverator.io.com <sound@deliverator.io.com>
Cc: Douglas Purl <dcp@selway.umt.edu>
Date: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: Intellectual Property Request
>>Since congress openly advertises that it is for sale, it reversed
>>tradition by granting the recording industry extraordinary restrictive use
>>privileges. We'll see if the public buys the x-rated digital discs.
>>
>>Doug Purl
>
>It's the U.S. Congress that's Pay-Per-Use! No wonder they want the rest of
>us to have the same system ... what a generous bunch of fellas they are!
>
>
>Lynn Olson
>Editor, Valve & Tube News
>E-mail: lynno@teleport.com
>Ariel Speaker Page: http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/Ariel.htm
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Patrick Snook <patrick.snook@yale.edu>
Subject: Re: Intellectual Property Request
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:38:05 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n495
I grew up in England, where we have the euphemism "spend a penny" for "use
the bathroom", coined after all the public bathrooms which had
penny-slot-locks on the doors, requiring payment before admission. Hence
also "caught short", meaning short of change, and then long on damp
trouser. Hence also the boatloads of ex-pats such as me, coming over
here, using your public bathrooms and marrying your daughters. Want to
stop us? Charge more for a cup of coffee, and install pay-per-pee
toilets.
Patrick
On Tue, 17 Nov 1998, Doc B. wrote:
> If you are reading this e-mail, you are required to send me a quarter for
> using it.
>
> Citizens for Pay Toilets in the U.S. Capitol
> P.O. Box 2786
> Poulsbo, WA 98370
>
>
> Doc B.
> www.bottlehead.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lynn T. Olson <lynno@teleport.com>
> To: sound@deliverator.io.com <sound@deliverator.io.com>
> Cc: Douglas Purl <dcp@selway.umt.edu>
> Date: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 9:27 AM
> Subject: Re: Intellectual Property Request
>
>
> >>Since congress openly advertises that it is for sale, it reversed
> >>tradition by granting the recording industry extraordinary restrictive use
> >>privileges. We'll see if the public buys the x-rated digital discs.
> >>
> >>Doug Purl
> >
> >It's the U.S. Congress that's Pay-Per-Use! No wonder they want the rest of
> >us to have the same system ... what a generous bunch of fellas they are!
> >
> >
> >Lynn Olson
> >Editor, Valve & Tube News
> >E-mail: lynno@teleport.com
> >Ariel Speaker Page: http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/Ariel.htm
> >
> >
> >
>
=========================================================================
From: STEVE CORNETT <SCORNETT@usagroup.com>
Subject: Re: Intellectual Property Request -Reply
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:46:37 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n494
Lynn posted:
"...I am in full agreement. I was quite startled to read Pohlmann's defense
of DIVX, the noxious pay-per-play encrypted-DVD cooked up by a LA
law firm and Circuit City..."
I wonder if some creative hacker/EE is already working out how to get
around this system. After all, the information is on the disk...it's just a
matter of getting your player to let you play it more than the allotted
number of times.
Steve C.
=========================================================================
From: DQNL50A@prodigy.com ( HERBERT E REICHERT)
Subject: Intent to show?
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 15:05:26, -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n324
I know I sound cranky - but riddle me this and I will apoligize in
public.
I will kiss as in Macy's window.
Question 1: What possible good intent could Marks opinion concerning
the representation of horns at the show serve?
Question 2: Who is served by saying the sound in the Avantgarde room
was "dreadful"?
Question 3: On what experience or authority does Mark base his
opinion?
Question 4) Why didn't he ask me what I thought of the playback?
Herbert
=========================================================================
From: twiegand@nexstar.com
Subject: interconnect attenuator
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:28:28 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n030
Hi,
I have a quick question regarding the correct wiring of an attenuator. As
an interim solution I want to run my CD player directly into the power amps
and I am planning to use a pair of 10K pots for signal attenuation. I got
some cheap interconnects from Radio Shack, cut them in half, soldered the
central wires of the cable to the input and output connectors of the pot
and reconnected the shield of the cable. The problem is that the pots
appear to have no effect. This wiring scheme was suggested by the good
people of The Shack and I don't know if the 10K value is too low to give
decent attenuation or if this hook up is plain wrong. By the way, there is
a third connector on the pot and I am not using this one.
Any help would be appreciated,
Torsten
twiegand@nexstar.com
=========================================================================
From: Kalman Rubinson <rubinsnk@is2.nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: interconnect attenuator
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:52:01 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n031
On Thu, 18 Sep 1997 twiegand@nexstar.com wrote:
> I have a quick question regarding the correct wiring of an attenuator. As
> an interim solution I want to run my CD player directly into the power amps
> and I am planning to use a pair of 10K pots for signal attenuation. I got
> some cheap interconnects from Radio Shack, cut them in half, soldered the
> central wires of the cable to the input and output connectors of the pot
> and reconnected the shield of the cable. The problem is that the pots
> appear to have no effect. This wiring scheme was suggested by the good
> people of The Shack
Shosw what they know. You need to connect the shield (of both sides)
to the 3rd pin of the pot. (This assumes that you got the first two
right.)
> and I don't know if the 10K value is too low to give
> decent attenuation or if this hook up is plain wrong. By the way, there is
> a third connector on the pot and I am not using this one.
10K should be adequate. Now you know what to do with that 3rd pin.
Kal
=========================================================================
From: Terrence Dorsey <terrend@microsoft.com>
Subject: RE: interconnect attenuator
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:15:46 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n032
Important lesson learned here: never, _ever_ take electronics advice
from a Radio Shack employee.
Actual conversation between RS employee and me:
RS: What's that?
Me: A capacitor.
RS: What's it do?
Terry
> ----------
> From: Kalman Rubinson
> Sent: Thursday, September 18, 1997 6:52 PM
> To: twiegand@nexstar.com
> Cc: sound@deliverator.io.com
> Subject: Re: interconnect attenuator
>
> On Thu, 18 Sep 1997 twiegand@nexstar.com wrote:
>
<snip>
> > appear to have no effect. This wiring scheme was suggested by the
> good
> > people of The Shack
>
> Shosw what they know. <snip>
=========================================================================
From: twiegand@nexstar.com
Subject: Re: interconnect attenuator - Thanks
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:56:01 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n031
Hi guys,
Thanks for setting me straight on how to wire these pots correctly.
Everthing is working beautifully now.
On with the music,
Torsten
twiegand@nexstar.com
=========================================================================
From: merrec@mail1.jpl.nasa.gov (Christopher Merren)
Subject: INTER-CONNECTS IDEA????
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:34:24 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n385
I was wondering if anyone tried SMA interconnects for audio....
They are 50 ohm cables and have excellent terminations ...with threaded
ends....
Sort-of looks like the termination of TV-cable wire but 1/3 the
size.....
They come in very low loss and gold plating contacts....and very high
quality small flex cable..
Those RCA connectors are just not meant for real HI-END in my opinion..
I use them in RF stuff at work .......
I will eventually sooner or later give it a try and inform you guys on
what it's like...
CHEERS
CM
=========================================================================
From: Peter Drake <peterd@ndsuk.com>
Subject: Re: INTER-CONNECTS IDEA????
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:47:42 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n385
Christopher Merren wrote:
>
> I was wondering if anyone tried SMA interconnects for audio....
> They are 50 ohm cables and have excellent terminations ...with threaded
> ends....
> Sort-of looks like the termination of TV-cable wire but 1/3 the
> size.....
> They come in very low loss and gold plating contacts....and very high
> quality small flex cable..
> Those RCA connectors are just not meant for real HI-END in my opinion..
>
> I use them in RF stuff at work .......
> I will eventually sooner or later give it a try and inform you guys on
> what it's like...
> CHEERS
> CM
NVA in the UK use these, both as interconnects and speaker cables. They
use cables derived from aerospace technology using solid outer and
centre
conductors, making very stiff cables. The speaker cables just use the
centre conductor and have a pair of cables for each speaker.
Richard Dunn (?) of NVA swears by them.
- --
Pete Drake
peterd@ndsuk.com
http://www.ndsworld.com
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: INTER-CONNECTS IDEA????
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 19:34:25 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n386
At 15:34 11-8-98 -0700, Christopher Merren wrote:
>I was wondering if anyone tried SMA interconnects for audio....
considered, not tried
>They are 50 ohm cables and have excellent terminations ...with threaded
>ends....
>Sort-of looks like the termination of TV-cable wire but 1/3 the
>size.....
>They come in very low loss and gold plating contacts....and very high
>quality small flex cable..
>Those RCA connectors are just not meant for real HI-END in my opinion..
No, they are for RF. I use SMB (not threaded, smaller) up to 1 GHz. I
personally do believe that the better termination gives the advantage above
ordibary RCA. This only works if the rest of the systems matches in this way
>I use them in RF stuff at work .......
>I will eventually sooner or later give it a try and inform you guys on
>what it's like...
I am interested. Think the biggest problem is terminating them yourself,
and the unability to accept bigger cables
Succes
Guido
>CHEERS
>CM
>
>
>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Grego Sanguinetti <grego@lscpdx.latticesemi.com>
Subject: Re: INTER-CONNECTS IDEA????
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 13:38:23 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n388
> No, they are for RF. I use SMB (not threaded, smaller) up to 1 GHz. I
> personally do believe that the better termination gives the advantage above
> ordibary RCA. This only works if the rest of the systems matches in this way
>
> >I use them in RF stuff at work .......
> >I will eventually sooner or later give it a try and inform you guys on
> >what it's like...
>
> I am interested. Think the biggest problem is terminating them yourself,
> and the unability to accept bigger cables
Yeah that is the main problem that I have with them, especially
those cool little SMB connectors, which is what we use at work.
They are built for tiny diameter, stiff cable and the crimpers
won't work right on anything else.
I tried using them on the tiny diameter microphone cable, like
the Mogami "tie tack" cable but terminating was a serious pain.
As a result, I use 1/4" phone plugs for all my diy gear and
the stuff I make for other people, unless they really protest.
The nice thing about the SMA/B connectors is that most will
fit into a space provided for RCA jacks.
- -grego
=========================================================================
From: MHuber@t-online.de (Manfred Huber)
Subject: Re: INTER-CONNECTS IDEA????
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:55:54 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n388
- --_=_=_=IMA.BOUNDARY.EXO396138764=_=_=_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 13:38:23 -0700, Grego Sanguinetti wrote:
>> I am interested. Think the biggest problem is terminating them yourse=
lf,
>> and the unability to accept bigger cables
>
>Yeah that is the main problem that I have with them, especially
>those cool little SMB connectors, which is what we use at work.
>They are built for tiny diameter, stiff cable and the crimpers
>won't work right on anything else.
I was tired by the contact problems with cheap RCA coonectors
and searched for a way to attach my silver foil cables to SMBs.
Here is the solution I came up with:
The male part normally intended to be attached to the cable
is press-fit into a hole in a sheet of teflon and secured
by some selv-adhesive heat shrink tubing. The teflon sheet
can be screw-mounted to the chassis. Soldering the small
diameter wire that I use inside the amp to the connector
is no problem.
The female part normally intended to be mounted to the chassis
is soldered to the cable. After that I apply a small piece of
self-adhesive heat shrink tube only on the junction of the cable and
the connector. The glue inside the tube is melting when heated and
the resulting assembly is very rigid. The last step is to apply
bigger piece of normal heat shrink tube. This last tube also
does the color coding.
I hope my description was clear. I have put a sample that I built
some time a go on my scanner. As the resulting JPEG file is only about
4k I attach it to this mail. I hope you guys don t mind the
bandwidth.
Manfred
- ------------------
Manfred Huber
MHuber@t-online.de
- ------------------
- --_=_=_=IMA.BOUNDARY.EXO396138764=_=_=_
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- --_=_=_=IMA.BOUNDARY.EXO396138764=_=_=_--
=========================================================================
From: Christian Rintelen <rintelen@datacomm.ch>
Subject: Re: INTER-CONNECTS IDEA????
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:58:53 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n388
Grego Sanguinetti wrote:
> The nice thing about the SMA/B connectors is that most will
> fit into a space provided for RCA jacks.
>
> -grego
The same goes for Lemo or Fischer connectors both for their series 00 and series
01 size. 00 is the famous CAMAC connector, but they also offer twin- or triaxial
connectors with the same size. Tri-axial means it's actually a XLR connector and
ideal for balanced lines. But I can tell you -- these three pin connectors are a
major pain in the a#s to solder! (And don't even think about using anything
thicker than a 28 gauge wire wrap wire!
my 2 cents
Christian
=========================================================================
From: MHuber@t-online.de (Manfred Huber)
Subject: Re: INTER-CONNECTS IDEA????
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:55:54 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n389
- --_=_=_=IMA.BOUNDARY.EXO396138764=_=_=_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 13:38:23 -0700, Grego Sanguinetti wrote:
>> I am interested. Think the biggest problem is terminating them yourse=
lf,
>> and the unability to accept bigger cables
>
>Yeah that is the main problem that I have with them, especially
>those cool little SMB connectors, which is what we use at work.
>They are built for tiny diameter, stiff cable and the crimpers
>won't work right on anything else.
I was tired by the contact problems with cheap RCA coonectors
and searched for a way to attach my silver foil cables to SMBs.
Here is the solution I came up with:
The male part normally intended to be attached to the cable
is press-fit into a hole in a sheet of teflon and secured
by some selv-adhesive heat shrink tubing. The teflon sheet
can be screw-mounted to the chassis. Soldering the small
diameter wire that I use inside the amp to the connector
is no problem.
The female part normally intended to be mounted to the chassis
is soldered to the cable. After that I apply a small piece of
self-adhesive heat shrink tube only on the junction of the cable and
the connector. The glue inside the tube is melting when heated and
the resulting assembly is very rigid. The last step is to apply
bigger piece of normal heat shrink tube. This last tube also
does the color coding.
I hope my description was clear. I have put a sample that I built
some time a go on my scanner. As the resulting JPEG file is only about
4k I attach it to this mail. I hope you guys don t mind the
bandwidth.
Manfred
- ------------------
Manfred Huber
MHuber@t-online.de
- ------------------
- --_=_=_=IMA.BOUNDARY.EXO396138764=_=_=_
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- --_=_=_=IMA.BOUNDARY.EXO396138764=_=_=_--
=========================================================================
From: An-shyang Chu <achu@sandia.gov>
Subject: Re[2]: INTER-CONNECTS IDEA????
Date: 14 Aug 1998 09:48:45 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n389
- ---------------------------- Forwarded with Changes ---------------------------
From: An-shyang Chu at po897cc2
Date: 8/14/98 9:45AM
To: Grant.Sellek@roads.sa.gov.au at hubsmtp
Subject: Re[2]: INTER-CONNECTS IDEA????
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Correct me if I am wrong (I am not a RF guy... optical frequencies only please
;->). I think SMB connectors (or SMC) are not designed for repeatedly plug/
unplug. The duty cycle is in the low tens? The contacts will degrade and RF
noises will creep in. But again, we are only dealing with audio frequencies
here only...
Best regards,
hopper
p.s. they are nice connectors though!
_______________________________________________________________________________
Subject: RE: INTER-CONNECTS IDEA????
From: Grant.Sellek@roads.sa.gov.au at hubsmtp
Date: 8/14/98 9:29 AM
Allen Wright raved about SMB connectors in his article in SP#8 p47. Also
BNC.
Grant Sellek
Adelaide, Australia
grant.sellek@roads.sa.gov.au
> -----Original Message-----
> From: merrec@mail1.jpl.nasa.gov [mailto:merrec@mail1.jpl.nasa.gov]
> Sent: Wednesday, 12 August 1998 8:04 am
> To: JoeList
> Cc: JoeList
> Subject: INTER-CONNECTS IDEA????
>
>
> I was wondering if anyone tried SMA interconnects for audio....
> They are 50 ohm cables and have excellent terminations
> ...with threaded
> ends....
> Sort-of looks like the termination of TV-cable wire but 1/3 the
> size.....
> They come in very low loss and gold plating contacts....and very high
> quality small flex cable..
> Those RCA connectors are just not meant for real HI-END in
> my opinion..
>
> I use them in RF stuff at work .......
> I will eventually sooner or later give it a try and inform you guys on
> what it's like...
> CHEERS
> CM
>
>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Grego Sanguinetti <grego@lscpdx.latticesemi.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: INTER-CONNECTS IDEA????
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:34:31 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n389
On Fri, Aug 14, 1998 at 09:48:45AM -0600, An-shyang Chu wrote:
> ---------------------------- Forwarded with Changes ---------------------------
> From: An-shyang Chu at po897cc2
> Date: 8/14/98 9:45AM
> To: Grant.Sellek@roads.sa.gov.au at hubsmtp
> Subject: Re[2]: INTER-CONNECTS IDEA????
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Correct me if I am wrong (I am not a RF guy... optical frequencies only please
> ;->). I think SMB connectors (or SMC) are not designed for repeatedly plug/
> unplug. The duty cycle is in the low tens? The contacts will degrade and RF
> noises will creep in. But again, we are only dealing with audio frequencies
> here only...
>
> Best regards,
>
> hopper
> p.s. they are nice connectors though!
Well I can't say as I have read any product specifications
for them, but I just talked to our head analog test fixturing engineer
and he said that was not his experience. He buys them by the
hundreds too. He stated that the only failures he gets are
the delicate pins getting bent. Although he does point out that
the SMB's are sturdier than the SMA's.
All our linear and high speed digital test fixtures are wired
with SMB's, as they were in the last company I worked for.
- -grego
=========================================================================
From: "Sellek, Grant (TSA)" <Grant.Sellek@roads.sa.gov.au>
Subject: RE: INTER-CONNECTS IDEA????
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 00:17:49 +0930
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n389
Allen Wright raved about SMB connectors in his article in SP#8 p47. Also
BNC.
Grant Sellek
Adelaide, Australia
grant.sellek@roads.sa.gov.au
> -----Original Message-----
> From: merrec@mail1.jpl.nasa.gov [mailto:merrec@mail1.jpl.nasa.gov]
> Sent: Wednesday, 12 August 1998 8:04 am
> To: JoeList
> Cc: JoeList
> Subject: INTER-CONNECTS IDEA????
>
>
> I was wondering if anyone tried SMA interconnects for audio....
> They are 50 ohm cables and have excellent terminations
> ...with threaded
> ends....
> Sort-of looks like the termination of TV-cable wire but 1/3 the
> size.....
> They come in very low loss and gold plating contacts....and very high
> quality small flex cable..
> Those RCA connectors are just not meant for real HI-END in
> my opinion..
>
> I use them in RF stuff at work .......
> I will eventually sooner or later give it a try and inform you guys on
> what it's like...
> CHEERS
> CM
>
>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: "Bill Gaw" <whg@tiac.net>
Subject: Re: INTER-CONNECTS IDEA????
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 19:22:30 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n390
I am having a unit built by Alan, and he has demanded that he use these
connectors, as they sound far better than anythiong else out there. Bill
- -----Original Message-----
From: Sellek, Grant (TSA) <Grant.Sellek@roads.sa.gov.au>
To: JoeList <sound@deliverator.io.com>
Date: Friday, August 14, 1998 11:38 AM
Subject: RE: INTER-CONNECTS IDEA????
Allen Wright raved about SMB connectors in his article in SP#8 p47. Also
BNC.
Grant Sellek
Adelaide, Australia
grant.sellek@roads.sa.gov.au
> -----Original Message-----
> From: merrec@mail1.jpl.nasa.gov [mailto:merrec@mail1.jpl.nasa.gov]
> Sent: Wednesday, 12 August 1998 8:04 am
> To: JoeList
> Cc: JoeList
> Subject: INTER-CONNECTS IDEA????
>
>
> I was wondering if anyone tried SMA interconnects for audio....
> They are 50 ohm cables and have excellent terminations
> ...with threaded
> ends....
> Sort-of looks like the termination of TV-cable wire but 1/3 the
> size.....
> They come in very low loss and gold plating contacts....and very high
> quality small flex cable..
> Those RCA connectors are just not meant for real HI-END in
> my opinion..
>
> I use them in RF stuff at work .......
> I will eventually sooner or later give it a try and inform you guys on
> what it's like...
> CHEERS
> CM
>
>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: "Frank Deutschmann" <fdeutsch@bfm.com>
Subject: Interesting article...
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:42:15 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n147
Check out: http://www.teleport.com/~cognizer/eet/Almanac/TUTOR/MEAD.HTM
Its a long article, and covers many things, but this group might find the bit
on modeling the ear rather interesting. Here's a teaser:
"This active undamping system, from an engineering point of view,
demonstrates that the ear is set up to hear transients. According to Mead,
the ear is not set up like a series of band-pass filters, as nearly every
other engineering model suggests. If it was, then whenever a transient came
along it would set the bandpass filters ringing and the information in the
transients would be lost. According to Mead, that is not what the cochlea is
doing, rather the cochlea creates a traveling wave structure that preserves
the transient nature of sound."
Like I said, kind of interesting....
- -frank
=========================================================================
From: Kalman Rubinson <rubinsnk@is2.nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: Interesting article...
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:28:22 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n147
On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, Frank Deutschmann wrote:
> Check out: http://www.teleport.com/~cognizer/eet/Almanac/TUTOR/MEAD.HTM
>
Yes, very interesting but it is peppered with presumptions and
misconceptions about the neurobiology.
Kal
=========================================================================
From: "Frank Deutschmann" <fdeutsch@bfm.com>
Subject: Re: Interesting article...
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:44:18 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n147
On Dec 30, 4:28pm, Kalman Rubinson wrote:
> Yes, very interesting but it is peppered with presumptions and
> misconceptions about the neurobiology.
That's Carver Mead for you -- he's yet another one of these people who
achieved stunning success in some one limited domain (VLSI), and has now
headed for another domain and decided he is the new gift to that domain.
Problem is, while so many others are instantly dismissable when they do
this, Mead has actually produced some pretty interesting results. I don't
know if he's now doing "pseudoscience" and waving his hands in all the right
ways (Wired magazine likes him, and that's not a good sign...); its all
deeper than my (limited) knowledge of that field. But it certainly does seem
interesting!
- -frank
=========================================================================
From: Kalman Rubinson <rubinsnk@is2.nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: Interesting article...
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:59:53 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n147
On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, Frank Deutschmann wrote:
> On Dec 30, 4:28pm, Kalman Rubinson wrote:
> > Yes, very interesting but it is peppered with presumptions and
> > misconceptions about the neurobiology.
>
> That's Carver Mead for you -- he's yet another one of these people who
> achieved stunning success in some one limited domain (VLSI), and has now
> headed for another domain and decided he is the new gift to that domain.
> Problem is, while so many others are instantly dismissable when they do
> this, Mead has actually produced some pretty interesting results.
No question. In fact, if he had scrupulously adhered to present detailed
understanding, his work would be bogged down by it. Making presumptions,
simplifications and interpetations is necessary for his modelling work. My
concern is that readers should not take his interpretations of biology to
be true representations of current knowledge.
> I don't know if he's now doing "pseudoscience" and waving his hands in
> all the right ways (Wired magazine likes him, and that's not a good
> sign...); its all deeper than my (limited) knowledge of that field. But
> it certainly does seem interesting!
I think his work is valuable as well as interesting. His models should
illuminate and inform the biology on which they are based and, even if
they do not succeed greatly in that, they will probably be useful in the
development of prosthetics.
Kal
=========================================================================
From: Grego Sanguinetti <grego@latticesemi.com>
Subject: Re: Interesting article...
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:42:39 -0800 (PST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n155
On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, Frank Deutschmann wrote:
> On Dec 30, 4:28pm, Kalman Rubinson wrote:
> > Yes, very interesting but it is peppered with presumptions and
> > misconceptions about the neurobiology.
>
> That's Carver Mead for you -- he's yet another one of these people who
> achieved stunning success in some one limited domain (VLSI), and has now
> headed for another domain and decided he is the new gift to that domain.
Yup, however his "success" in VLSI (Very Large Scale Integrated Circuits)
was dubious. His premise was that design rules were scalable. Those of us
working with high speed processes at the time knew that was a pipe dream.
His lambda based rules were nice for colleges though and did allow for
somewhat fab independent designs. This made it possible for students to
get designs built. But it only worked for very low performance stuff.
The problem was that we would get students who thought they could design
IC's but didn't realize they had been living in an idealized world. This
was in the late 70's early 80's. The C-M fab syndicates (I forget the
actual name) were running something like 2 micron CMOS at like 10MHz but
at the Tektronix IC group we were working on 500MHz Bipolar and 1GHz
digital GaAs and much faster analog IC's. They were not at all prepared to
deal with the resulting problems and grossly oversimplified everything.
Mead's design methodologies did not work on these processes and have
long since been abandoned even on main stream CMOS.
The students used to drive me crazy though. I grew quite a dislike for
Mr. Mead. It's the old problem. When you simplify the conditions you can
come up with all kinds of nifty solutions. For instance you can do all
kinds of cool things with the CAD tools. But when the tools have to deal
with very real and ugly problems then it becomes VERY VERY difficult if
not totally impractical to do all the wizzy push button stuff. I was in
charge of design methodologies and had to put up with all the "but we had
this or that wizzy tool in college, why can't you guys do that".
In reality they were better off then if they had not done any IC's at
all, so in that respect the Carver Mead revolution was a good thing. It
didn't take long to install a good dose of humility in their attitude.
Ok sorry about the off topic tirade. It did feel good though B^)
I must be grumpy tonight...
and happy new year to everyone, the last month or so I have been busier
that a one armed paper hanger with lice!
- -grego
=========================================================================
From: Simon Busbridge <S.C.Busbridge@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Interesting article...
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:25:09 +0000 (GMT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n158
Frank,
I'm glad that you could get the article - when I tried I couldn't get
through. In fact from the synopsis you provide he is correct. The
model of bandpass filters in only good in the steady state, when the peak
in the basilar membrane is mapped onto its position due to a change in the
mechanical properties from the base to the apex.
Transient information will set up a travelling wave along the basilar
membrane, and part of this will be temporally encoded in the neurons due
to a process called phase locking. This is due to neurons firing on the
upward motion of the basilar membrane when they are depressed against the
bony structure of the organ of corti. Phase locking does not work above
about 5 kHz as there is a temporal spread in neuron firing.
Gosh - I'm talking biology here!!
I wish I could get into the whole articly.
Simon
Dr Simon Busbridge
Department of Mechanical and Manufacturing Engineering
University of Brighton
Lewes Road
Moulsecoomb
Brighton BN2 4GJ
UNITED KINGDOM
Tel: 0044 (0)1273 642542
Fax: 0044 (0)1273 642327
e-mail: s.c.busbridge@bton.ac.uk
"..biology is what you do when you don't have the maths for real
science.." (sliders)
On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, Frank Deutschmann wrote:
>
> Check out: http://www.teleport.com/~cognizer/eet/Almanac/TUTOR/MEAD.HTM
>
> Its a long article, and covers many things, but this group might find the bit
> on modeling the ear rather interesting. Here's a teaser:
>
> "This active undamping system, from an engineering point of view,
> demonstrates that the ear is set up to hear transients. According to Mead,
> the ear is not set up like a series of band-pass filters, as nearly every
> other engineering model suggests. If it was, then whenever a transient came
> along it would set the bandpass filters ringing and the information in the
> transients would be lost. According to Mead, that is not what the cochlea is
> doing, rather the cochlea creates a traveling wave structure that preserves
> the transient nature of sound."
>
> Like I said, kind of interesting....
>
> -frank
>
=========================================================================
From: Kalman Rubinson <rubinsnk@is2.nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: Interesting article...
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:02:24 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n159
On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Simon Busbridge wrote:
> Transient information will set up a travelling wave along the basilar
> membrane, and part of this will be temporally encoded in the neurons due
> to a process called phase locking. This is due to neurons firing on the
> upward motion of the basilar membrane when they are depressed against the
> bony structure of the organ of corti. Phase locking does not work above
> about 5 kHz as there is a temporal spread in neuron firing.
Actually, there is phase-locking at high frequencies but each neuron
cannot fire on every cycle because of their transient refractory limits.
However, each neuron will fire at the appropriate place in the cycle on
those cycles when it does fire. Thus, the entire population of neurons
can, together, encode the signal even though an individual one cannot.
Kal
=========================================================================
From: slagle@dtlweb.com
Subject: interesting it 'sperments
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 18:22:59 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n086
had a few minutes the other day so i glommed a trannie phase splitter onto
a ST-70 chasis.
I used a pair of the utc cg-somthings that are a 3-2 stepdowm and take 60
ma of primary current.... (the same trannies I use happily on the output of
my first stage)
for a driver i used a 6EM7 (essentially a 12AT7 and a 12B4ish tube in the
same envelope) its an octal tube and fits nicely in the preamp takeoff
sockets... I also triode wired the outputs and removed all feedback...
this was an amp i was living happily with for some time with a 12AT7 gain
directly coupled to its second 1/2 as a split load inverter)
I direct coupled the first two stages ala steve berger's 50 amp and chose
the 6EM7 cuz i had a pair.... 25ma ran through the second 1/2 of the em7,
the CT of the secondary was grounded.
a nicad provided the bias on the first stage
got everything operating properly, and gave it a listen.... ugh herb's amps
sounded sooo good.. and these well... herbs amps have $600+ of tango iron
per side and single plate 2A3's so triode wired EL-34's and dyna iron is
not a fair compairison... but this wasn't even close (granted the split
load inverter didn't fare much better which fueled this crazy swap) there
was a lot of emotion to the music, but the highs seemed to have lots of
problems.
talked to steve berger and he convinced me to bring it by his shop for a
test bench ride.... it was easier to toss it in a cab than dig out my scope
so off i went... on the way i realized i forgot to load the secondary of
the trannie..
after the 10 minutes of laughter from steve seeing my beautiful wiring job
we plopped it on the bench.
at 1K it made 12W and the -3db points were 15 and 21K... although the
waveform at 15hz was pretty scary... what was even scarier was what
happened between 20K-25K, and 12W out was .15V in so I had a bit too much
gain...
the secondary definately seemed to want loading... so i swapped values a
bit and settled on 10K
now at 1W of output power.... everything looked good to 20K and then the
peaks and valleys were +- til 35K where all was lost. not so bad....
at 10W out it was a different story everything was fine to around 20K but
then a nasty nasty phase shift reared its head inbetween 20-25K... tried a
few things and couldnt lose it... and was baffled what its cause would
be...
the one thing it didn't try was a dc blocking cap to keep the DC out of the
primary of the IT.... seems this could be the cause since the more power
out, the more severe the problem????
anyways decided to take it home and see if there was an improvement from
the loading....
the sound was better, the highs still seem a bit rolled.. (could be the 60
feet of interconnect) but still there is a lot of fun... herb's amps still
blow it away, but come on lets get real here... its a big room with kef
inwall speakers...
I know these IT's are not the worlds greatest, and ring badly when not
loaded... and at tops hit 25K but i have had good results using them (and
still do) in my other system... so the wacky phase stuff and distortion
still has me baffled.
all this got me thinking.... since these puppies are CT, i wonder what the
difference between series and parallel connection of the secondary would do
to my linestage.
this was really interesting and will have to give it more time, but first
impressions say,
series connection has beter definition and a clearer sound
parallel connection has less gain (duh but still plenty) and much more HF
info... each connection setup has its merits, but can't say i have a
preference..
i guess this makes sense (similar to the parallel tube thing?...) and would
be interested to hear if anyone else has tried this.... the lundahl's and
some of the tango's have tapped secondaries, and although you will lose
some gain.... I would be interested to hear.. uh i mean read what others
thought...
dave
=========================================================================
From: Richard C Nevill <rnevill@is.dal.ca>
Subject: interesting site
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:28:35 -0400 (AST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n230
A useful looking site, especially for Canadian Joe's out there. lot's of
surplus stuff, including tubes.
http://www.falls.igs.net/~testequipment/
Cheers
Richard Nevill
=========================================================================
From: Grover Gardner <groverg@postoffice.att.net>
Subject: Interesting site
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:32:10 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n339
"Kelly" from Austin writes to say that the list might find the following of
interest:
http://www.buffalo.edu/news/Latest/ChungFilaments.html
Grover Gardner
groverg@postoffice.att.net
=========================================================================
From: SHAMSUL Bahrin Kamarudin <shamsul.BK@innosabah.com.my>
Subject: Interesting site about CAPACITORS
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 15:17:18 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n382
Hello.
I found something that JOE-Netters might be interested at this website
http://www.capacitors.com/pickcap/pickcap.htm
Regards.
::-)
\\\///
/ _ _ \
(| (.)(.) |)
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mailto:shamsul.BK@innosabah.com.my
mailto:0198107360@sms.celcom.com.my
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_/ H/P: 019-8107360 TEL: 6088-244185 FAX: 6088-251679 _/
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_/ TO BECOME A LEADING HI-TECH, PEOPLE ORIENTED FINANCIAL _/
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_/ THIS IS A | INNOSABAH SECURITIES SDN BHD (194990-K) _/
_/ COMPUTER GENERATED | 11 EQUITY HOUSE, BLOCK K, _/
_/ ELECTRONIC MAIL | SADONG JAYA, KARAMUNSING, _/
_/ AND IS DEEMED TO | 88100 KOTA KINABALU, SABAH, _/
_/ HAVE BEEN SIGNED | M A L A Y S I A _/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
=========================================================================
From: Scott Grammer <tubedude@cdc.net>
Subject: Interesting URL
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 20:18:27 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n451
http://www.thoraudio.com/
S.G.
- --
Visit TubeDude's Webpage of Vacuum Tube Lore!
http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude
Also check out Smoke Free Youth!
http://www.cdc.net/~tubedude/smokefreeyouth.html
See what I have for sale!
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/tubedude@cdc.net/
=========================================================================
From: Grover Gardner <groverg@postoffice.att.net>
Subject: Re: Interesting URL
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 08:58:51 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n452
At 8:18 PM -0400 10/12/98, Scott Grammer wrote:
>http://www.thoraudio.com/
>
>S.G.
$5000 for a PP EL34 monoblock! That's it, I'm going into business...;-)
Grover Gardner
groverg@postoffice.att.net
=========================================================================
From: "Le Cleac'h J.-M." <lecleach@cgi.ensmp.fr>
Subject: Re: Interesting URL
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 18:21:08 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n452
Scott Grammer wrote:
> > look at http://www.thoraudio.com/
Grover Gardner <groverg@postoffice.att.net> replied:
> $5000 for a PP EL34 monoblock!
By Odin that's a lot!
Best regards,
Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h, Paris, France
=========================================================================
From: DQNL50A@prodigy.com (HERR HERBERT E REICHERT)
Subject: Internet Message
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 11:35:14, -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n235
Dear Michael,
I think you have done a much better than I at getting at what I like
about the Tango permaalloy. Please note; it is my experience that
when added TEXTURAL and COLOR information appear in the reproduced
music the overall sound "character" becomes less clear. If you want
clearity you must remove this information. Most PP and feedback amps
do this. Thats why with pp/feedback imaging seems more SPECIFIC.
But it is this added information, this big batch of small scale stuff
that I keep alluding to that opens up and relaxes the presentation.
Opera is great for demonstrating this. Feedback amps show you
exactly WHERE the singers are but no feedback give you the 60 ft.
stage and all the textural "confusion" of the scene. It is full and
continious but somewhat overfull with info. This is what I really
like and I thing very few others do.
When you get lots of small scale info coming through the reproduction
seems a little "dirty". There is just a lot going on - just like
real life. I will write an article about this.
Herb
=========================================================================
From: SSell71096 <SSell71096@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Internet Message
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 18:41:30 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n236
erb said:
>When you get lots of small scale info coming through the reproduction seems a
little "dirty". <
I don't really understand this. While I'm more than willing to give all kinds
of stuff a good listen, as I love music and it's reproduction, I've yet to
hear particularly good sound thru any kind of SE amp, be it tube or ss. FWIT
(and it indeed may be worth something) SE amps tend to have horrible
measurements. It's not unreasonable to venture that that's why it sounds
"dirty". Rather than assuming you're getting "lots of small scale info" you
may well just be getting lots of small scale distortions, and those extra
harmonics may sound to your ears like color and texture and you may well enjoy
them but they also may well be, in fact, just "dirty".
Put those knives, and torches down, guys. 8-)
Cheers.
=========================================================================
From: DQNL50A@prodigy.com (HERR HERBERT E REICHERT)
Subject: Re: Internet Message
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:07:07, -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n237
Dear Mr./Ms. Sell,
I am sorry you haven't heard good sound through "any" SE amp. You
didn't say which ones you have experienced or what constituted the
remainder of the system. I would however caution you against making
blanket statements in this room as the dogs will start barking. I
know this from experience.
However, I AM a lucky man. Gad has made it possible to have
vertually any amp I so desire to try in my system. Many costing more
than most people's homes. I kinda like music too. I like all
sources. I have 12K - 14K Lps, 300 - 400 78s, 400 30ips master tapes,
300 1/4 track tapes, 200 cassetts, 200 CDs and I collect tuner's,
tape recorders and turntables. In short I listen to lots of music.
All I can say is I think I am capable of distinguishing between
distortion and clean, COMPLETE playback. In fact, if you look
atpublish power vs. distortion curves for the majority of non-SE amps
you will find that at the milliwatt and microwatt levels the
distortion is off the scale. Most PP and SS amps fair very poorly at
low power outputs. This means that the majority of small scall
musical information is being reproduced at very high levels of
distortion. SE sans feedback, properly implimented, is just the
opposite! The big Krells are the amps that are "dirty" with
distortion.
Herd
=========================================================================
From: "Henry Platt" <hnplatt@massed.net>
Subject: internet routing (was Cheap 6BQ5s (sort of)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:53:27 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n433
- ----------
>From: Tim Reese <reese@nmr.MGH.harvard.EDU>
>To: solvin-aurum@get2net.dk
>Cc: sound@deliverator.io.com
>Subject: Re: Cheap 6BQ5s (sort of)
>Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998, 11:43 AM
>
>BTW Kurt's reply from the DK domain showed up on my mail server before my
>original post was echoed, and my ISP (Havahd) is a major node. Some of you
>Joe's who have been missing posts may be suffering from the vagueries of
>internet routing, rather than losing your posts altogether?
Judging from the order in which posts appear on my screen relative to when I
send them I would agree with the above.
Henry Platt
=========================================================================
From: Kurt Steffensen <solvin-aurum@get2net.dk>
Subject: Re: internet routing (was Cheap 6BQ5s (sort of)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:50:30 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n433
Henry Platt wrote:
>
> ----------
> >From: Tim Reese <reese@nmr.MGH.harvard.EDU>
> >internet routing, rather than losing your posts altogether?
>
> Judging from the order in which posts appear on my screen relative to when I
> send them I would agree with the above.
>
> Henry Platt
Dear All.
I do belive something is wrong in the routings of our messages.
I have posted four mails to this list.
None of them show up.
Also I can tell from the text in those mails I do recieve , that I miss
some.
Now instead of only ascertain this , is there not something we can do
about it ?
I wonder if this one will show up ...
- - Sincerely Kurt
=========================================================================
From: Eric Weitzman <eweitzman@acm.org>
Subject: interpolating/extrapolating curves?
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 21:07:32 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n457
Does anyone know of a more (rather than less) reliable way
to extrapolate a set of curves from one set of operating conditions
to another? Specifically, I have a 6BQ5-based amp with 320 volts
on the screen and two sets of curves at 210v and 300v.
Thanks,
- -Eric
=========================================================================
From: "Le Cleac'h J.-M." <lecleach@cgi.ensmp.fr>
Subject: Re: interpolating/extrapolating curves?
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:27:12 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n459
- ----------
> De : Eric Weitzman <eweitzman@acm.org>
> A : sound@deliverator.io.com
> Objet : interpolating/extrapolating curves?
> Date : dimanche 18 octobre 1998 06:07
>
> Does anyone know of a more (rather than less) reliable way
> to extrapolate a set of curves from one set of operating conditions
> to another? Specifically, I have a 6BQ5-based amp with 320 volts
> on the screen and two sets of curves at 210v and 300v.
Hello,
Here is my method (quite complicated but accurate):
Step 1)
Consider a high value for Va (plate to cathod voltage). Generally 300V is
correct.
Then, for the different sets of curves you have, note the value of Ia
(plate current)
for every Vg1 curve (and for the Va value you previously choose)
Step 2)
Now you have to draw a new graph Ia = f(Vg1).
The axis of that graph will be:
Vg1 for the X - axis and (the 0 value should be on your right)
Ia for the Y - axis.
You'll obtain the same number of curves than the number of sets of original
curve you have.
In your case you have 2 curves, one for Vg2 = 210V and one for Vg2 = 300V.
Step 3)
Now, passing through the origin of the graph (Vg1 = 0V and Ia = 0mA) place
a straight line SL the slope of which you have to choose in order as the
straight line SL pass through the "knee" of every of the 2 curves (knee = a
point inside the zone with the highest curvature).
Note the value of Ia for the crossing point between the straight line SL
and the 2 curves.
Draw another graph Ia = f(Vg2), you have 3 points (Vg2 =0, Vg2 = 210V and
Vg2 = 300V).
If the 3 points are badly aligned on a straight line come back to the
beginning of step 3) and choose a different slope :-) until there are best
aligned.
Step 4) Now you have a straight line Ia = f (Vg2) (or a slightly curved
line) and you can read the value of Ia for Vg2 = 320V.
Place a point P with that Ia value on the straight line SL on the graph Ia
= f(Vg1).
Then you'll slide the nearest curves Ia = f(Vg1) (in you case Vg2 = 300V)
along the straight line SL so the curve pass through the point P. This is
the curve Ia = f(Vg1) for Vg2 = 320V (and Ua = 300V).
Then note for the different value of Vg1 the value of Ia.
Step 5) On the graph Ia = f(Va) for Vg2 = 300V, place for Va = 300V the
point corresponding to the (Ia,Vg1) couples you noted at the end of step
4).
Now you have to trace (with a different color for conveniency) through
every Ia, Va = 300V couples a complete curve.
You have to do it considering the shape of the nearest curves Ia = f (Va)
for Vg2 = 300V.
Normally if my explanations are good you have now the set of curves for Vg2
= 320V.
Best regards,
Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h, Paris, France
=========================================================================
From: "T. Loesch" <ezee_e@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: INTERSTAGE TRANSF.
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 08:42:14 PDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n404
Hi there,
>> Do try Black Gates.
>
>Ha,ha - No I probably won't.The ones I use now are "invisible"
>to my ears.
May we kinly enquire to the make in question. I'd rather love to find to
better 'lytics than I have acces to now without incuring the
Price-penaly of Black Gates....
>Our brain adjust to the sound merits of any system, without we
>can help it.
THis is why I "break in" new equipment on a Dummy load and with a spare
Seedee Player. (even Cables - don't forget teh dummy load there
either.... or on Preamp's)
Usually distinct differences are detectable in most electronic Units
over 48 to 96 Hours....
Speakers are another story entierly of course....
>A cathodefollower that are well designed, suffers from none
>of these.
Sorry Gov. As far as I am concerned, there is no such thing. Cathode
Followers are plain bad. Full stop. Use them - you loose.
No CF is sonically Invisible. It is easier to source a good Transformer
(IT or Line in/out) than to construct a good CF....
At least to my ears and in my Books....
And during the Time when I designed Pro-Audio Gear (back in the good old
Day's in East Germany) each Mixing-desk had at least two Transformers in
the path from the Mic to the Output.
The 1:5 Upwards Transformer on the Input and a 1:1 on the Output....
Distortion and Frequency Response of these Desks was as low as any
without Transformers (actually better than most) and the S/N was a lot
better due to the better matching of Impedances and Noise Resistances
and the related Levels....
And everyone liked the Desks because you didn't get any Ground-Loops
anywhere. They din't like the Price though... ;-)
So State TV and Radio as well the Record Company (there was only one)
where the only customers within East Germany (no - I think we sold three
or four Desks to Bands actually).
So as far as I'm concerned, if I need a low Impedance and cannot get it
with Choke Loading and suitable Valves, Driver/Output Trasformers are
way more my piece of cake than Cathode Followers.
And the breaking of potential Ground/Noise Loops benefits HiFi as much
as it does Pro-Audio....
The only small matter there is the rather major cost of a good
Interstage/Lineoutput transformer.
Kind regards Thorsten.
======================================
e-mail:
Thorsten@tnt-audio.com
Visit TNT-Audio on the Web - the only advertising
free audio web-zine.
http://www.tnt-audio.com
======================================
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: INTERSTAGE TRANSF.
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 19:28:15 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n404
At 13:30 27-8-98 PDT, Kurt Steffensen wrote:
>Gentlemen.
>
>Thankīs for your comments, to my contribute to this subject.
>
>Dave wrote:
>----------
>> Don't worry about your English.
>> Don't go back to RAT. Joenet is much better.
>Yes, so it seems. I will stay.
>
>> Do try Black Gates.
>
>Ha,ha - No I probably wonīt.The ones I use now are "invisible" to my ears.
Which ones are they ?
>> I'm not much of a technical guy, but if there's one thing i've learned,
>> it's not to trust engineering over ears.
>
>Hmm, do you mean years or ears ?
both, I guess
> If i believed the engineers, i'd
>> be looking for a higher-powered transistor amp, rather than enjoying my
>> triodes. :}
>>
>The triodes were made by engineers.
>
>> I haven't tried Black Gates, but they're intriguing. Their construction
>> is powdered graphite, far different from "normal" electrolytics.
>> Technically, they may be electrolytics, but they can't be expected to
>> sound the same.
>
>Why not ?
>
>> Also, a break-in period is reasonable, for any electronic
>> component. They are mechanical as well as electrical devices.
>> Electromagnetic forces will rattle the mechanical parts until they settle.
>
>You are right, but the quality of the passive component, I feel should be so
>high, that such "aging", should not be possible to detect through the music.
What is "high quality" of components ?
>> Some components require more break-in than others, or are more audibly
>> different during the break-in period (the foil inductors i use in speaker
>> crossovers are terrible for the first few hours).
>>
>Our brain adjust to the sound merits of any system, without we can help it.
>We kind of get "used" to the new qualityīs, good or bad.
>I think this characteristic sometimes plays with us.
It does, but implementing new (same) capacitors after a while makes sound
different
>I know it does with me, thatīs why I use blind testīs to conclude.
>
>> Interstage transformers work a LOT better than the engineers think. Try
>> them and see!
>
>I have tried hundreds during the years.
>I know exactly the proīs and contīs about them.
>At anytime I will prefere a valve to do the job.
But is needs at least anode load, without that no gain appears :-)
>> Yes, they have a lot of technical problems - bandwidth,
>> poles, power limitations - but in many ways they are the ideal coupling
>> solution. Interstage transformers provide a very low DC resistance and
>> high AC impedance, for optimal coupling to difficult loads (such as a
>> triode grid).
>
>A cathodefollower that are well designed, suffers from none of these.
We have huge dicussions on cathode folowers (CF). What is your opinion ?
regards
Guido
>And it will sound a lot more neutral than any transformer.
>(I am not sure what you mean by a triode grid as a difficult load?)
>
> >Transformer coupling has a remarkable sound, very clear and
>> natural.
>>
>Yes, but still detectable. - Good cathodefollowers are not.
>- Maybe you like the warm and harmonic sound of a good transformer.
>- That is an entirely other matter.
>
>> I use photoflash caps too, but that's because i'm a cheapskate and can get
>> them for free.
>
>Ha,ha, That is a very good reason indeed.
>
>> They're okay, but i bypass them with a small oil cap,
>> which results in a much cleaner sound.
>>
>Yes, I agree, so do I.
>
>
>> In simple, clean amplifiers, every single part is audible. Electrically
>> "identical" components can have radically different sounds. In this
>> environment, we cannot trust measurements or theory to tell us what will
>> sound good or bad. We can only trust our ears.
>>
>I agree, thatīs why I am so found of blind testīs.
>
>
>- Sincerely Kurt Steffensen
>
>> -dave
>>
>> Practice beautiful randomness and act kind of senseless.
>> <dstagner@icarus.net>
>>
>>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: "Kurt Steffensen" <solvin-aurum@get2net.dk>
Subject: INTERSTAGE TRANSF.
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 98 13:30:42 PDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n404
Gentlemen.
Thankīs for your comments, to my contribute to this subject.
Dave wrote:
- ----------
> Don't worry about your English.
> Don't go back to RAT. Joenet is much better.
Yes, so it seems. I will stay.
> Do try Black Gates.
Ha,ha - No I probably wonīt.The ones I use now are "invisible" to my ears.
>
> I'm not much of a technical guy, but if there's one thing i've learned,
> it's not to trust engineering over ears.
Hmm, do you mean years or ears ?
If i believed the engineers, i'd
> be looking for a higher-powered transistor amp, rather than enjoying my
> triodes. :}
>
The triodes were made by engineers.
> I haven't tried Black Gates, but they're intriguing. Their construction
> is powdered graphite, far different from "normal" electrolytics.
> Technically, they may be electrolytics, but they can't be expected to
> sound the same.
Why not ?
> Also, a break-in period is reasonable, for any electronic
> component. They are mechanical as well as electrical devices.
> Electromagnetic forces will rattle the mechanical parts until they settle.
You are right, but the quality of the passive component, I feel should be so
high, that such "aging", should not be possible to detect through the music.
> Some components require more break-in than others, or are more audibly
> different during the break-in period (the foil inductors i use in speaker
> crossovers are terrible for the first few hours).
>
Our brain adjust to the sound merits of any system, without we can help it.
We kind of get "used" to the new qualityīs, good or bad.
I think this characteristic sometimes plays with us.
I know it does with me, thatīs why I use blind testīs to conclude.
> Interstage transformers work a LOT better than the engineers think. Try
> them and see!
I have tried hundreds during the years.
I know exactly the proīs and contīs about them.
At anytime I will prefere a valve to do the job.
> Yes, they have a lot of technical problems - bandwidth,
> poles, power limitations - but in many ways they are the ideal coupling
> solution. Interstage transformers provide a very low DC resistance and
> high AC impedance, for optimal coupling to difficult loads (such as a
> triode grid).
A cathodefollower that are well designed, suffers from none of these.
And it will sound a lot more neutral than any transformer.
(I am not sure what you mean by a triode grid as a difficult load?)
>Transformer coupling has a remarkable sound, very clear and
> natural.
>
Yes, but still detectable. - Good cathodefollowers are not.
- - Maybe you like the warm and harmonic sound of a good transformer.
- - That is an entirely other matter.
> I use photoflash caps too, but that's because i'm a cheapskate and can get
> them for free.
Ha,ha, That is a very good reason indeed.
> They're okay, but i bypass them with a small oil cap,
> which results in a much cleaner sound.
>
Yes, I agree, so do I.
> In simple, clean amplifiers, every single part is audible. Electrically
> "identical" components can have radically different sounds. In this
> environment, we cannot trust measurements or theory to tell us what will
> sound good or bad. We can only trust our ears.
>
I agree, thatīs why I am so found of blind testīs.
- - Sincerely Kurt Steffensen
> -dave
>
> Practice beautiful randomness and act kind of senseless.
> <dstagner@icarus.net>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Grover Gardner <groverg@postoffice.att.net>
Subject: Re: INTERSTAGE TRANSF.
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:42:23 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n405
At 8:42 AM -0700 8/27/98, T. Loesch wrote:
>>A cathodefollower that are well designed, suffers from none
>>of these.
>
>Sorry Gov. As far as I am concerned, there is no such thing. Cathode
>Followers are plain bad. Full stop. Use them - you loose.
>
>No CF is sonically Invisible. It is easier to source a good Transformer
>(IT or Line in/out) than to construct a good CF....
Oh, Thorsten, I must heartily disagree! I have switched to a
direct-coupled CF to drive my output tubes, and I couldn't be more pleased.
I am not of the "cleaner-is-better" or the spotlit-analytical school. Far
from it. In fact, I find the CF brings a fleshier, more realistic sound to
midrange, a smoother top end and vastly improves the bass of an SE circuit.
It very much depends on the tube one uses, but with a 5687, or best of all
the hard-to-source 6900, this has probably been the biggest step forward in
amp construction I have made in the past year. It makes every triode I
have tried in the circuit sound better than it has a right to--VV52, VV32,
Valve Arts 5300B, Svetlana 300B, etc.
I have NOT tried IT coupling at all, so perhaps I am missing even more :-)
and I had very good results using a choke-loaded 46 or other power tube as
a driver, but the simplicity and sonics of the CF in this instance are hard
to beat, IMHO.
Grover Gardner
groverg@postoffice.att.net
=========================================================================
From: Audio1Nut@aol.com
Subject: Re: INTERSTAGE TRANSF.
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 16:07:11 EDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n405
In a message dated 8/27/98 12:01:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
groverg@postoffice.att.net writes:
<< Oh, Thorsten, I must heartily disagree! I have switched to a
direct-coupled CF to drive my output tubes, and I couldn't be more pleased.
I am not of the "cleaner-is-better" or the spotlit-analytical school. Far
from it. In fact, I find the CF brings a fleshier, more realistic sound to
midrange, a smoother top end and vastly improves the bass of an SE circuit.
It very much depends on the tube one uses, but with a 5687, or best of all
the hard-to-source 6900, this has probably been the biggest step forward in
amp construction I have made in the past year. It makes every triode I
have tried in the circuit sound better than it has a right to--VV52, VV32,
Valve Arts 5300B, Svetlana 300B, etc.
Agree here I like cap coupled better.....cause I have tried IT coupled but did
not care much for the sound. I feel that IT take away the musicality, but
have to admit that IT got more details and better bass. May be I did not give
the iron enough time before evaluating. For Blackgate, I feel that Cerafine
do a good job as well in the high voltage cap but in the smaller voltage I
feel that they do improve the sound. Now I'm going to try amorphous core
transformers soon(in a week will have the amp built), will report to the list.
Viwat
=========================================================================
From: davidbarnett@aristotle.net (David Barnett)
Subject: Re: INTERSTAGE TRANSF.
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 21:49:12 GMT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n405
On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:42:23 -0500, Grover Gardner
<groverg@postoffice.att.net> wrote:
> I have switched to a
>direct-coupled CF to drive my output tubes, and I couldn't be more pleased.
Are you using fixed-bias, or cathode bias for the output stage?
- --dnb
=========================================================================
From: "Kurt Steffensen" <solvin-aurum@get2net.dk>
Subject: Re: INTERSTAGE TRANSF.
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 98 20:19:01 PDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n405
Mr.Loesch.
Thank you for your reply.
Mr. Loesch wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> >> Do try Black Gates.
> >
> >Ha,ha - No I probably won't.The ones I use now are "invisible"
> >to my ears.
>
> May we kinly enquire to the make in question. I'd rather love to find to
> better 'lytics than I have acces to now without incuring the
> Price-penaly of Black Gates....
If I understand you right, you would like to know which electrolytics I use ?
As I mentioned earlier I use Silvered Tantales.
(probably not cheaper than the BG`s)
They need no burn in, and as they are both element materials,
they will last a couple of generations.(at least)
I bypass them with non-inductive capacitors.
> >Our brain adjust to the sound merits of any system, without we
> >can help it.
>
> THis is why I "break in" new equipment on a Dummy load and with a spare
> Seedee Player.
I am sorry, but I think you missed my point a little here.
When ever something is changed in our usual system, our million year old brain,
tend to restores the change.
We probably all know, that we have to adjust/get used to a radical other set of speakers.
But when we have listened to it for a while, our brain has compensated for the "errors",
in that speaker, and we fully "understands" the soundstage.
Another example, is while listening to a little pocket radio, we can go:" Wauh, what
a deep bas tone he has on that Fender".
Even though, nothing comes out from that radio, below say 160Hz, our brain, without
any difficulties, can tell from the harmonics, that a deep bass is going on.
> (even Cables - don't forget teh dummy load there
> either.... or on Preamp's)
I donīt belive cables needs burn in.( or maybe I misunderstands you ?)
I have never noticed such, even when swippingh the oldest and still hot cables of mine,
to new ones.
But the test is simple.(2 pairs, in a blind test)
> Usually distinct differences are detectable in most electronic Units
> over 48 to 96 Hours....
True.
> Speakers are another story entierly of course....
I agree.
> >A cathodefollower that are well designed, suffers from none
> >of these.
>
> Sorry Gov. As far as I am concerned, there is no such thing. Cathode
> Followers are plain bad. Full stop. Use them - you loose.
What is "Gov" ?
What do you mean by "there is no such thing" ?
Cathode-followers are the most perfect electronic stages that can be made.
The price is however, that they do not DO any amplification.
Therefor it is of little use.
Exept as for impedance matching, low distortions stages in measuring equipment,
and in high frequency equipment, and such.
However,please, let me hear the arguments for the strong statements.
> No CF is sonically Invisible. It is easier to source a good Transformer
> (IT or Line in/out) than to construct a good CF....
>At least to my ears and in my Books....
Maybe that book of yours needs to be rewritten.
You can hardly have done experiments, with CFīs to state such.
Well made, they are impossible to detect.(Way up in radio signals)
Please, consult any book regarding that matter.
Even the most carefull listenings test we did, can not reveal if one or
even two cathode followers are in the chain.(Sure they were DBT)
On the other hand, we can allways detect a transformer in the chain.
> And during the Time when I designed Pro-Audio Gear (back in the good old
> Day's in East Germany) each Mixing-desk had at least two Transformers in
> the path from the Mic to the Output.
So did we in the rest of the world.
But we did it simply for the needs of long cables in the studios, and for keeping it all
at 600 Ohm standards.(Balanced signals for CMR)
> Distortion and Frequency Response of these Desks was as low as any
> without Transformers (actually better than most) and the S/N was a lot
> better due to the better matching of Impedances and Noise Resistances
> and the related Levels....
Noise is much lower, thatīs also why we did it.(But we do not need such long
cables in domestic HiFi equipment, neither do we need everything to match 600 Ohm)
But having lower distortion because of the transformers ?
That is new to me.
What equipment did you compared it with ?
> And everyone liked the Desks because you didn't get any Ground-Loops
> anywhere. They din't like the Price though... ;-)
Lots of ground-loops can exist, between the transformers, but if connected correct,
not from the primaere side to the secondary side.
> So as far as I'm concerned, if I need a low Impedance and cannot get it
> with Choke Loading and suitable Valves, Driver/Output Trasformers are
> way more my piece of cake than Cathode Followers.
I accept that.
I just have another opinion
> And the breaking of potential Ground/Noise Loops benefits HiFi as much
> as it does Pro-Audio....
I agree. But why not simply avoid doing such nasties ?
> The only small matter there is the rather major cost of a good
> Interstage/Lineoutput transformer.
Well, in my designs, I have better results, without the transformers.
A lot of people , simply likes the harmonies of transformers,
and enjoys when valves sounds soft and warm.(Please, read the post from Dave Slagle)
I 100% respect that.
I just want it to be as neutral as ever possible, striving to get the concert hall,
in to my living room.
(Impossible mission...I know, but I am getting close enough to me)
- - sincerely Kurt Steffensen
=========================================================================
From: Grover Gardner <groverg@postoffice.att.net>
Subject: Re: INTERSTAGE TRANSF.
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 23:40:00 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n406
At 9:49 PM +0000 8/27/98, David Barnett wrote:
>On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:42:23 -0500, Grover Gardner
><groverg@postoffice.att.net> wrote:
>
>> I have switched to a
>>direct-coupled CF to drive my output tubes, and I couldn't be more pleased.
>
>Are you using fixed-bias, or cathode bias for the output stage?
Fixed bias, with a negative supply on the CF and a bias pot to the grid of
the CF to set the output tube bias.
Grover Gardner
groverg@postoffice.att.net
=========================================================================
From: "T. Loesch" <ezee_e@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: INTERSTAGE TRANSF.
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 03:48:22 PDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v01.n406
Hi there,
>As I mentioned earlier I use Silvered Tantales.
Are they available in 500V?
>I am sorry, but I think you missed my point a little here.
I did not. I did mean to say - yes our Brain adapts and ou hearing
"breaks in" as much as a Component. So by not listening to the piece of
equipment under investigation during break-in (I do reviews for a
On-Line Magazine) I avoid my Ear/Brain system becomming accustomed to
the Sound....
>> (even Cables - don't forget teh dummy load there
>> either.... or on Preamp's)
>
>I don't belive cables needs burn in.
I have done Experiments in this line myself. I agree. I have found no
Evidence of break-in in Cables. However some manufacturers insist their
Cables need breakin. To be fair I connect them to a CD-Player Output
with a 10k Resistance on the other End with a CD on repeat.
This simulates the Cable being in a system and being played.
As said, no evidence has emerged for break-in there. At the same time,
if Cables are moved they can change mechanically and as a result
electrically and require some time to "settle".
>But the test is simple.(2 pairs, in a blind test)
Been there. Done that. Also for Cable Directionality.
>> Sorry Gov. As far as I am concerned, there is no such thing.
>> Cathode Followers are plain bad